Not Great ! Evora S vs BMW 1M
Discussion
BertBert said:
bobo said:
the point is imho that lotus should be making cars with higher power to weight than their rivals, not less.
I think that is missing the lotus point by a fair way. I don't think that lotus have ever been about highest power to weight.Bert
Lotus seem to have abandoned the 'light weight' concept, and without this, engine power (or lack of) becomes a serious issue.
Historically, Lotus have always been too little/too late with proper engines...
Scuffers said:
maybe so, but that does not mean you can ignore it.
Lotus seem to have abandoned the 'light weight' concept, and without this, engine power (or lack of) becomes a serious issue.
Historically, Lotus have always been too little/too late with proper engines...
agreed ....Lotus seem to have abandoned the 'light weight' concept, and without this, engine power (or lack of) becomes a serious issue.
Historically, Lotus have always been too little/too late with proper engines...
but total double standards from the 'fraternity' really, all this 'it will have it in the corners, lotus isn't about speed' nonsense and yet 90pc of owners mod their cars or crave that after market SC LOL! bert, im sure you are also guilty of looking for a few extra bhp ?
well, i'm guilty as hell, i had a k20a dumped in the back of my s1 exige as i couldn't buy one that way off the shelf.
when i bought my first liz s1 in 2000 ish it was light years ahead of everything in terms of packaging, weight, design, handling, fabrication, materials... the list goes on.... back then the relative power deficit (which wasn't that great anyway) meant absolutely nothing. how things have changed and how laurels have been rested on.
surely the fact that lotus are finally making a V6 exige only reinforces this bhp/weight point. it should be an absolute rocket, high on bhp and massive on power to weight and probably even after 100mph it may well be the quickest car they have ever made and that's in a straight line.
there is an 'absolute' market and brand necessity for this car which has been finally recognized even at the cost of internal sales (evora) which it probably will.
no doubt the 'fraternity' will turn up their noses and say its not a real lotus because its got a genuine off the shelf heavyweight power to weight ratio that allows it to 'blitz' all relative price rivals and even some exotica ..... or perhaps they will finally get it.
who knows, then again, maybe not ... LOL
ones thing for sure, if this v6 exige is the real deal in terms of power and weight it will sell like bloody hot cakes and not just to the 'fraternity' either which is probably whats really important...
bobo said:
ones thing for sure, if this v6 exige is the real deal in terms of power and weight it will sell like bloody hot cakes and not just to the 'fraternity' either which is probably whats really important...
was with you right up to this point!yes, 300 (or 345?) Hp is the right direction, however, if it is the 1,100Kg's rumoured, then it's like one step forwards, and another back again.
original Exige was 775Kg's, so this is now some 42% heavier, that's not insignificant.
Scuffers said:
was with you right up to this point!
yes, 300 (or 345?) Hp is the right direction, however, if it is the 1,100Kg's rumoured, then it's like one step forwards, and another back again.
original Exige was 775Kg's, so this is now some 42% heavier, that's not insignificant.
absolutely... but i would have thought though that to open the exige into new mkts you would need some kind of creature comforts hence the +42% which i think is fair though. yes, 300 (or 345?) Hp is the right direction, however, if it is the 1,100Kg's rumoured, then it's like one step forwards, and another back again.
original Exige was 775Kg's, so this is now some 42% heavier, that's not insignificant.
and at 1,100kgs and 350bhp its a step in the bloody right direction lotus on bhp/weight(even if far from ideal) imho.
lets face it... until the final spec is announced its impossible to know whether they could produce a genuine lightweight special edition (so in this case not just another paint job) that would satisfy the hardcore and get that weight ratio into very interesting numbers.
Boggy said:
The Evora should have ran ring's around it, it's a sports saloon for god's sake, and not even their fastest one. Boggy
^^^^^ ThisObviously companies like BMW have the advantage that much of the R&D expenditure can be recovered by selling humdrum models of the same car - 1Ms will only be a small proportion of total 1-series sales. So Lotus have to bring something different to the party and that should be MORE peformance. Otherwise Evora looks overpriced.
Elise was the invention of necessity. Sooner or later the same approach will deliver the car I want - a lighter, quicker, cheaper V6 Lotus.
It's about what you want from a car. If you want fastest in a straight line, then power to weight is all important. If (like me) you want tactile, good throttle response, handling, directness, lightness, balance, then actually the power to weight isn't all that important. In fact more power can make it worse. You end up pumping air in and that's a hateful solution.
Take another example, the 911 turbo. The dullest car in the world to drive for me. I'd rather be in a pug 106 rallye. But to the owners who like that kind of thing, power is everything.
And yes, if Lotus is not about "highest power to weight" which it's not, then getting upset about it is pointless!
So I really don't get very excited about power to weight.
Bert
Take another example, the 911 turbo. The dullest car in the world to drive for me. I'd rather be in a pug 106 rallye. But to the owners who like that kind of thing, power is everything.
And yes, if Lotus is not about "highest power to weight" which it's not, then getting upset about it is pointless!
So I really don't get very excited about power to weight.
Bert
no but bert, with the greatest of respect and in the nicest possible way your view wont ensure the companies forward survival. big ticket sales will and unfortunately that brings serious relative competition.
i agree with everything you said, so you have the option of buying an aspirated elise at whatever they retail at now... good stuff. that's always been an option so its largely irrelevant here.
this debate (and that's all it is) was about a supercharged v6 flagship gt of lotus retailing at a cool £65k getting a trouncing by a £45k bmw saloon not the Peugeot ralle lotus equivalent.
please keep things in that perspective.
i agree with everything you said, so you have the option of buying an aspirated elise at whatever they retail at now... good stuff. that's always been an option so its largely irrelevant here.
this debate (and that's all it is) was about a supercharged v6 flagship gt of lotus retailing at a cool £65k getting a trouncing by a £45k bmw saloon not the Peugeot ralle lotus equivalent.
please keep things in that perspective.
Edited by bobo on Saturday 2nd July 16:39
Yes I understand that perspective. But if you are saying that the Evora S is not the saviour for lotus' future, then we all know that. The beemer and others having more power to weight is nothing new in that debate! The Nissan GTR stomps all over the Evora, but I'd still have an Evora over the Nissan for what the Evora does very well.
I strongly suspect that if Lotus does manage to chart their way forward successfully, it won't be by having the best power to weight. Probably not even in the top quartile.
Bert
I strongly suspect that if Lotus does manage to chart their way forward successfully, it won't be by having the best power to weight. Probably not even in the top quartile.
Bert
BertBert said:
Yes I understand that perspective. But if you are saying that the Evora S is not the saviour for lotus' future, then we all know that. The beemer and others having more power to weight is nothing new in that debate! The Nissan GTR stomps all over the Evora, but I'd still have an Evora over the Nissan for what the Evora does very well.
I strongly suspect that if Lotus does manage to chart their way forward successfully, it won't be by having the best power to weight. Probably not even in the top quartile.
Bert
I'm with you on that.I strongly suspect that if Lotus does manage to chart their way forward successfully, it won't be by having the best power to weight. Probably not even in the top quartile.
Bert
The Nissan comparison is an interesting one. The Evora gets compared to the Porsche, but no-one seems to be upset that the Nissan is a significantly faster car. For all the top-trumps talk of power to weight, I really don't think the comparison with the Porsche fails because of the bhp and weight - it's a whole load of other factors (packaging, perception, perfection) that Lotus have to conquer.
My recollection of the early days of the Elise is that from very early on people were complaining that it was underpowered. That didn't hurt sales though, and at that end of the market the utilitarian interior didn't hurt either. Now Lotus get kicked in the butt for not being 'lightweight' - by the same people who complain that it doesn't have the cabin experience of a car that has vast amount of padding. NVH can only really be tamed by padding, so what are they to do? If it's lightweight, it's not sophisticated enough for that market. If it's more comfortable then it's not true to 'Lotus values'.
Tuna said:
I'm with you on that.
The Nissan comparison is an interesting one. The Evora gets compared to the Porsche, but no-one seems to be upset that the Nissan is a significantly faster car. For all the top-trumps talk of power to weight, I really don't think the comparison with the Porsche fails because of the bhp and weight - it's a whole load of other factors (packaging, perception, perfection) that Lotus have to conquer.
i completely agree that lotus have it all to prove ... isnt a gtr more expensive at £73k than the basic carrera though ? The Nissan comparison is an interesting one. The Evora gets compared to the Porsche, but no-one seems to be upset that the Nissan is a significantly faster car. For all the top-trumps talk of power to weight, I really don't think the comparison with the Porsche fails because of the bhp and weight - it's a whole load of other factors (packaging, perception, perfection) that Lotus have to conquer.
just to throw a spanner in the works re power to weight and the view that its irrelevant - what happens when all the other manufacturers match lotus's lightweight technology edge? surely its only a matter of time if not already?
bobo said:
just to throw a spanner in the works re power to weight and the view that its irrelevant - what happens when all the other manufacturers match lotus's lightweight technology edge? surely its only a matter of time if not already?
with you on this,the reason the Elise worked is that it was the only car like it (not quite true as the Renault Spider was first,(all be it heavier and without doors etc).
the Exige is supposed to be the hard-core, striped out 'race' version of the Elise, not sure how this new V6 one can claim to be that at 1,100Kg's (as you say, if this info is correct?)
bobo said:
i completely agree that lotus have it all to prove ... isnt a gtr more expensive at £73k than the basic carrera though ?
just to throw a spanner in the works re power to weight and the view that its irrelevant - what happens when all the other manufacturers match lotus's lightweight technology edge? surely its only a matter of time if not already?
The point is that Lotus don't have any secret 'lightweight technology' - For a given stiffness of frame, aluminium is no lighter than steel, and quite a few of the other manufacturers are more than capable of using aluminium themselves anyway. Fibreglass as a body material has no advantage (apart the cost of machine tooling) over pressed steel. In earlier cars, they engineered to the limit (particularly for race cars), but that's not acceptable in a modern car where people expect to drive them for tens of thousands of miles between services.just to throw a spanner in the works re power to weight and the view that its irrelevant - what happens when all the other manufacturers match lotus's lightweight technology edge? surely its only a matter of time if not already?
What Lotus do have is incredible understanding of chassis design and construction. They are skilled at research and development, and the use of novel materials and processes. They have a lot of experience in tuning and engine design. But they don't have access to any magic materials that other manufacturers aren't quite capable of using. For a given price of car, and a given quality of experience, there are only so many options for materials and design. The 'Performance through lightweight' mantra only works if you're willing to go without things seen as normal on a car of that type - which was the basis of the Elise, ditching virtually everything from the cabin. So there's not much room to produce a dramatically lighter weight car whilst matching the noise, vibration, harshness and creature comforts of premium marques.
Scuffers said:
true to a point, although you might want to consider the stripped out cars like the Ferrari CS's etc with no carpets/trim/etc that they charge a premium for.
Agreed - you could argue that Lotus should produce 'hardcore' stripped down versions of their cars (which I guess they do in the case of the 211), but would the Evora be more desirable if you had the option of a 'race spec' model with everything stripped out? I feel it would just reinforce the idea that Lotus only produce cars for 'hardcore' owners (ie. not the normal premium market). It's in the wrong segment for that. On the other hand, I would expect the new Esprit to come out with a seriously hardcore version to establish what the 'top end' Lotus is capable of.
It doesn't matter what sort of sportscar Lotus build so long as customers will buy it. IMO they have no need to try to compete with Japanese 2-door saloon cars at £70k. It looks as though they've been up a series of blind alleys with M100 Elan, Europa and Evora. In truth, apart from the Elise only the original Elan and Esprit have ever been right-first-time in the styling department. Evora has many of the ingredients needed for a great sportscar, although currently they live inside a frumpy and expensive package.
If it's going to find customers a £60k sportscar needs to look stunning and be distinctly "sportier" than a small German saloon costing only two thirds of the money!
If it's going to find customers a £60k sportscar needs to look stunning and be distinctly "sportier" than a small German saloon costing only two thirds of the money!
5 USA said:
It doesn't matter what sort of sportscar Lotus build so long as customers will buy it. IMO they have no need to try to compete with Japanese 2-door saloon cars at £70k. It looks as though they've been up a series of blind alleys with M100 Elan, Europa and Evora. In truth, apart from the Elise only the original Elan and Esprit have ever been right-first-time in the styling department. Evora has many of the ingredients needed for a great sportscar, although currently they live inside a frumpy and expensive package.
If it's going to find customers a £60k sportscar needs to look stunning and be distinctly "sportier" than a small German saloon costing only two thirds of the money!
agree on styling, last good job was the s1 elise, how the hell a company goes from a legend like giugiaro to the cord wearing russell carr is beyond me. thank god they have an italian back on board. If it's going to find customers a £60k sportscar needs to look stunning and be distinctly "sportier" than a small German saloon costing only two thirds of the money!
Scuffers said:
bobo said:
agree on styling, last good job was the s1 elise, how the hell a company goes from a legend like giugiaro to the cord wearing russell carr is beyond me. thank god they have an italian back on board.
still think the M250 looks good, some 12+ years on....Russell Carr's work on the M250 was lovely, and it speaks volumes that the Evora echoes it's lines. I'm not sure it would have been as great a car if it had ever reach production, but that comes down to packaging which seems to be one of the big issues with Lotus.
Tuna said:
The Elise was by Julian Thomson who headed the design department, and is now Studio Director at Jaguar. Saw an S1 in racing green today and it is still beautiful.
Russell Carr's work on the M250 was lovely, and it speaks volumes that the Evora echoes it's lines. I'm not sure it would have been as great a car if it had ever reach production, but that comes down to packaging which seems to be one of the big issues with Lotus.
my personal opinion is thomson did a far better job with far more restrictions with 1 car, RC has always been a step down. Russell Carr's work on the M250 was lovely, and it speaks volumes that the Evora echoes it's lines. I'm not sure it would have been as great a car if it had ever reach production, but that comes down to packaging which seems to be one of the big issues with Lotus.
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