Academies

[WolfyJones]

A good read for anybody with kids in academies,

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/4938593/...

[Justin Cyder]

My nephew was taken on at Spurs at eight. Stayed three years & was released & now plays for Stevenage at their academy. I go along pretty much with all of that article. At Spurs, there is a policy of no parents at the academy & also practically no feedback either.

It is a pretty ruthless system & very hard on the vast majority of boys who go into it.

[Cheib]

Justin Cyder said:

My nephew was taken on at Spurs at eight. Stayed three years & was released & now plays for Stevenage at their academy. I go along pretty much with all of that article. At Spurs, there is a policy of no parents at the academy & also practically no feedback either.

It is a pretty ruthless system & very hard on the vast majority of boys who go into it.

Mate of mine had his two sons in the Spurs academy when they were around the same age....he actually took them out as they weren't enjoying it...I seem to remember him saying they weren't allowed to play for other teams/with their mates ?

Not a Spurs thing I am sure just a general problem.

[Justin Cyder]

I don't know the details & can't say whether Spurs is particularly regimented, but I do know he's much happier at Stevenage & they do encourage the parents to get involved & attend matches.

[anniesdad]

Cheib said:

Mate of mine had his two sons in the Spurs academy when they were around the same age....he actually took them out as they weren't enjoying it...I seem to remember him saying they weren't allowed to play for other teams/with their mates ?

Not a Spurs thing I am sure just a general problem.

Well done to your mate. I think it's at age 9 that the academies stop the kids from playing for other teams.

[sjc]

Justin Cyder said:

I don't know the details & can't say whether Spurs is particularly regimented, but I do know he's much happier at Stevenage & they do encourage the parents to get involved & attend matches.

Parents watch all the Spurs academy games as well,I've been to them, it's just that with as with any Academy game they are not allowed to pipe up from the touchline, which is a refreshing change from the Sunday league morning nonsense you hear from parents.There may be the odd tournament where parents are not allowed. The games are actually a pleasure to watch, the standard and speed, even at the young ages can sometimes take your breath away.
That article is 5 years old, and while some of it rings true, especially in how mentally tough it can be, some of it is hopelessly out of date.

[Justin Cyder]

He's been out of Spurs for a couple of years now, but when he was there, I'm told they weren't allowed along. Maybe things have changed or I misunderstood. I agree though, even at 11, the standard of play is very impressive.

[sjc]

anniesdad said:

Cheib said:

Mate of mine had his two sons in the Spurs academy when they were around the same age....he actually took them out as they weren't enjoying it...I seem to remember him saying they weren't allowed to play for other teams/with their mates ?

Not a Spurs thing I am sure just a general problem.

Well done to your mate. I think it's at age 9 that the academies stop the kids from playing for other teams.

Indeed it is.
And once signed, you can't just "get them out".

[Cheib]

sjc said:

anniesdad said:

Cheib said:

Mate of mine had his two sons in the Spurs academy when they were around the same age....he actually took them out as they weren't enjoying it...I seem to remember him saying they weren't allowed to play for other teams/with their mates ?

Not a Spurs thing I am sure just a general problem.

Well done to your mate. I think it's at age 9 that the academies stop the kids from playing for other teams.

Indeed it is.
And once signed, you can't just "get them out".

I think they were 11 and 9 at the time....the elder one wasn't enjoying it so he pulled them both out.

[sjc]

Cheib said:

sjc said:

anniesdad said:

Cheib said:

Mate of mine had his two sons in the Spurs academy when they were around the same age....he actually took them out as they weren't enjoying it...I seem to remember him saying they weren't allowed to play for other teams/with their mates ?

Not a Spurs thing I am sure just a general problem.

Well done to your mate. I think it's at age 9 that the academies stop the kids from playing for other teams.

Indeed it is.
And once signed, you can't just "get them out".

I think they were 11 and 9 at the time....the elder one wasn't enjoying it so he pulled them both out.

Even at that age, they are contracted to the club, you can't just suddenly say you are not coming anymore, unless either A:they don't want you anyway in which case you sign a "no compensation mutual consent form" or B: you buy them out yourself at a cost of approx' 3K for every season they've been signed or C: another club is willing to pay compensation to the club that holds the contract backdated at a rate of 3K per season.
These figures are based on 9-12 year old's at Category 1 academies.

[WolfyJones]

The stats concerning summer borns are sad, it must be hard for the lads born in August to compete with lads born the September before who are almost a year older.

[Cheib]

WolfyJones said:

The stats concerning summer borns are sad, it must be hard for the lads born in August to compete with lads born the September before who are almost a year older.

It's the same for academic results.

[sjc]

WolfyJones said:

The stats concerning summer borns are sad, it must be hard for the lads born in August to compete with lads born the September before who are almost a year older.

It's a bit of a myth "that clubs only want the big strong lads" etc ,this normally comes from an aggrieved parent whose son has been released. You've only got to watch the FA youth cup final between Chelsea and Fulham last night to see there were lads playing from 5'4 to 6'4. In academies,because there are no leagues, players regularly play up or down an age group, depending on their physique, mental well being or ability.The clubs aren't stupid and the coaches are experts in their field, so they aren't going to release someone who has the ability but no physique, because in many area's that can be changed drastically(especially with the advances in sports science which is used even in 10 year olds) otherwise Messi and the like wouldn't be words in our vocabulary. You've only got to look at the changes in the physiques of players like Ronaldo and De Gea within a very short time frame early in their careers.
What can happen is that a young lad can have all the back garden skills in the world and look fantastic in Sunday morning grass roots football, but if he can't see a pass, doesn't release the ball at the right time, or cannot take top level coaching on board with regards to positional sense and tactical awareness etc and replicate that on the pitch amongst the elite of his age, then he will be gone. These are sometimes referred to as a"street footballer".
All that said, in Europe the academies do you use the calendar years for age groups, rather than our school year system.

[Fittster]

"When you were born has a big impact on your chances of sporting success. Researchers have looked at football in England, ice hockey in Canada and competitors at the Beijing Olympics to draw meaningful conclusions about the impact of birth dates.

In 2009, professional English youth academies (aged 16-20 years) were grossly over-represented by players with birthdates in a three month period. 57% of youngsters were born in September, November or December whilst only 14% celebrated their birthday in June, July or August.

This is not a one off. At a recent U17 European Championship, 75% of the footballers were born in a four month window. Similar results were detected in Canadian ice hockey and at the 2008 Beijing Olympics."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/olympics/18891749

[sjc]

Not sure that tells us anything,without the percentage of births overall for the months in the relevant years?

[Fittster]

Look at the graph here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relative_age_effect

[sjc]

It's certainly interesting, but I'd suggest that birth month is more likely to have an effect on education in the early years than it may on physicality or athletic ability? As per my post above, ability will always be the over-riding factor, and the clubs don't miss a thing in sports science, even with 10 year olds. Once they become 1st/2nd year scholars, they are effectively all the same age, and have caught up with each other physically, if not in height then certainly strength and fitness.
In the same way, the scouting network is such that the best prospects simply don't get "missed" nowadays.

[WolfyJones]

sjc said:

It's certainly interesting, but I'd suggest that birth month is more likely to have an effect on education in the early years than it may on physicality or athletic ability? As per my post above, ability will always be the over-riding factor, and the clubs don't miss a thing in sports science, even with 10 year olds. Once they become 1st/2nd year scholars, they are effectively all the same age, and have caught up with each other physically, if not in height then certainly strength and fitness.
In the same way, the scouting network is such that the best prospects simply don't get "missed" nowadays.

Can I ask your experience with pro football?

[sjc]

WolfyJones said:

sjc said:

It's certainly interesting, but I'd suggest that birth month is more likely to have an effect on education in the early years than it may on physicality or athletic ability? As per my post above, ability will always be the over-riding factor, and the clubs don't miss a thing in sports science, even with 10 year olds. Once they become 1st/2nd year scholars, they are effectively all the same age, and have caught up with each other physically, if not in height then certainly strength and fitness.
In the same way, the scouting network is such that the best prospects simply don't get "missed" nowadays.

Can I ask your experience with pro football?

Sure..
My son is currently at his second pro' club,his been in the Academy system since 2010 ( up until 3 months ago at Category one level,now dropped down a category)so over that period I've learnt a bit about the good the bad and the ugly of the system via coaches,scouts,conversations,numerous presentations,pro's and ex-pro's and my own eyes.

[WolfyJones]

Thanks, hope your lad does well