The Official Liverpool FC Thread [Vol 19]

[Flip Martian]

Fair points. To be honest, I come from the POV that "if I didn't need it, I sure as hell wouldn't put it in my body". More fool anyone who does really. Steroids artificially expand your lung membranes to couteract what asthma does to them. My GP told me that you want to take as little as possible as ultimately your lungs lose their elasticity/ability to return to normal and that's not a good thing in older age.

So anyone taking them is storing up trouble for later. At least in his view, that was a few years ago.

[Da Original Whyayedee]

Go and read what the guys on the Tour were doing when doping was at its peak, mainly around the Armstrong days. Those guys were literally playing with death to gain an advantage. To think it doesn't seep into other professional sports is probably naive at best.

[epom]

Da Original Whyayedee said:

Go and read what the guys on the Tour were doing when doping was at its peak, mainly around the Armstrong days. Those guys were literally playing with death to gain an advantage. To think it doesn't seep into other professional sports is probably naive at best.

Doping is always at its peak, the testers just haven't caught up with it yet.

When such enormous amounts of money are involved cheating, or gaining an advantage becomes inevitable.

[ORD]

There are plenty of PL footballers that I am fairly certain have taken a lot of PEDs. I don’t think anyone really thinks the testing is anything like sufficient to prevent a dedicated cheater.

[Adam.]

Chris Stott said:

Is there any evidence at all to support the LFC claims? (can’t access the bbc video here unless I fire up the VPN).

quick summary of BBC investigation recording:

average population - 12% have asthma
outside prof athletes like football are higher - average c.30% (swimmers 70%!!)
25% of Liverpool team have an asthmatic condition, per 2010 testing
no therapeutic improvement unless at very high doses, which would get picked up in any FA doping test
the 63% of team figure - a rumour originating from Alan Moore, a Moscow-based bullstter journalist
why has rumour caught on? Fans of rival teams desperately spreading bks

Edited by Adam. on Monday 8th August 13:19

[Chris Stott]

Adam. said:

quick summary of BBC investigation recording:

average population - 12% have asthma
outside prof athletes like football are higher - average c.30% (swimmers 70%!!)
25% of Liverpool team have an asthmatic condition, per 2010 testing
no therapeutic improvement unless at very high doses, which would get picked up in any FA doping test
the 63% of team figure - a rumour originating from Alan Moore, a Moscow-based bullstter journalist
why has rumour caught on? Fans of rival teams desperately spreading bks

Edited by Adam. on Monday 8th August 13:19

Thanks.

That’s pretty much what I thought when I looked at previously… the Russian based journo was a Putin apologist and conspiracy theorist.

I did read some stuff on asthma being ‘surprisingly’ common in cycling, and those guys obviously have form for exploiting drugs.

[NRS]

Adam. said:

Chris Stott said:

Is there any evidence at all to support the LFC claims? (can’t access the bbc video here unless I fire up the VPN).

quick summary of BBC investigation recording:

average population - 12% have asthma
outside prof athletes like football are higher - average c.30% (swimmers 70%!!)
25% of Liverpool team have an asthmatic condition, per 2010 testing
no therapeutic improvement unless at very high doses, which would get picked up in any FA doping test
the 63% of team figure - a rumour originating from Alan Moore, a Moscow-based bullstter journalist
why has rumour caught on? Fans of rival teams desperately spreading bks

Edited by Adam. on Monday 8th August 13:19

I've not been able to listen yet, but this was clearly the case before. I did a 5 minute google previously to see if it was true, and saw it all traced to the Moore story. First, given only one unknown journalist posted it then it raised alarm bells, as it'd be great for clicks if one of the big papers could run with it. Given the amount of BS they are happy to run with then it seems this story must clearly be rubbish if they avoided it. Then I googled his history and it was clearly a very dodgy source. He only had an "unknown source" mentioned (anyone looking at transfer news will be familiar with the amount of "unknown sources" that have clearly been made up). And he was someone who posted that the Buchra stuff in Ukraine was fake Ukrainian PR and similar.

It's clear there's only one reason to "believe" a dodgy journalist with an unknown source, who supports Putin and says war crimes are fake news.

The irony is if you look at his posts it seemed to indicate he was a Tottenham fan, which is funny given the PH history between us (which normally doesn't occur elsewhere but appears to in this case).

[ChocolateFrog]

Testing in the PL must be wholly inadequate or so easy to circumvent as to be pointless.

I can't remember the last time a player was banned for taking a PED, yet if you asked me to guess I'd put the figure at atleast 1 in 10.

[Chris Stott]

I don’t think they publicise failed tests in the EPL… also not sure what their banned substance list is…. Might be the WADA list, but I doubt they are testing for everything to WADA level… the costs would be pretty high, and with no biological passports and infrequent would be pointless testing for EPO and most other blood doping offences.

Edit…

Bit of Googling and they do use the WADA list. Suspect testing frequency is not very high if only 15 players have failed tests over a 5 year period

Edited by Chris Stott on Monday 8th August 14:03

[Byker28i]

NRS said:

Adam. said:

Chris Stott said:

Is there any evidence at all to support the LFC claims? (can’t access the bbc video here unless I fire up the VPN).

quick summary of BBC investigation recording:

average population - 12% have asthma
outside prof athletes like football are higher - average c.30% (swimmers 70%!!)
25% of Liverpool team have an asthmatic condition, per 2010 testing
no therapeutic improvement unless at very high doses, which would get picked up in any FA doping test
the 63% of team figure - a rumour originating from Alan Moore, a Moscow-based bullstter journalist
why has rumour caught on? Fans of rival teams desperately spreading bks

Edited by Adam. on Monday 8th August 13:19

I've not been able to listen yet, but this was clearly the case before. I did a 5 minute google previously to see if it was true, and saw it all traced to the Moore story. First, given only one unknown journalist posted it then it raised alarm bells, as it'd be great for clicks if one of the big papers could run with it. Given the amount of BS they are happy to run with then it seems this story must clearly be rubbish if they avoided it. Then I googled his history and it was clearly a very dodgy source. He only had an "unknown source" mentioned (anyone looking at transfer news will be familiar with the amount of "unknown sources" that have clearly been made up). And he was someone who posted that the Buchra stuff in Ukraine was fake Ukrainian PR and similar.

It's clear there's only one reason to "believe" a dodgy journalist with an unknown source, who supports Putin and says war crimes are fake news.

The irony is if you look at his posts it seemed to indicate he was a Tottenham fan, which is funny given the PH history between us (which normally doesn't occur elsewhere but appears to in this case).

Good summary above - which is why I brought it up (as a spurs fan NRS! ), they start with the disclaimer that they don't believe Liverpool are cheating.

[Adam.]

Chris Stott said:

Bit of Googling and they do use the WADA list. Suspect testing frequency is not very high if only 15 players have failed tests over a 5 year period

just go on a Rio shopping runner

[Ntv]

Flip Martian said:

Fair points. To be honest, I come from the POV that "if I didn't need it, I sure as hell wouldn't put it in my body". More fool anyone who does really. Steroids artificially expand your lung membranes to couteract what asthma does to them. My GP told me that you want to take as little as possible as ultimately your lungs lose their elasticity/ability to return to normal and that's not a good thing in older age.

So anyone taking them is storing up trouble for later. At least in his view, that was a few years ago.

Read into Team Sky, and you will learn that these steroids are the go to "legal" (i.e. with a prescription) for performance enhancement. A big part of performance enhancement is recovery (a point not often appreciated by those who haven't done competitive sport of a kind that puts a premium on recovery).

[Chris Stott]

Ntv said:

Read into Team Sky, and you will learn that these steroids are the go to "legal" (i.e. with a prescription) for performance enhancement. A big part of performance enhancement is recovery (a point not often appreciated by those who haven't done competitive sport of a kind that puts a premium on recovery).

All the cycling teams are doing some form of doping, but as in the LA years, some are just much better at it than others.

[selym]

Adam. said:

Chris Stott said:

Is there any evidence at all to support the LFC claims? (can’t access the bbc video here unless I fire up the VPN).

quick summary of BBC investigation recording:

average population - 12% have asthma
outside prof athletes like football are higher - average c.30% (swimmers 70%!!)
25% of Liverpool team have an asthmatic condition, per 2010 testing
no therapeutic improvement unless at very high doses, which would get picked up in any FA doping test
the 63% of team figure - a rumour originating from Alan Moore, a Moscow-based bullstter journalist
why has rumour caught on? Fans of rival teams desperately spreading bks

Edited by Adam. on Monday 8th August 13:19

Anybody who cites Moore as a reliable source has shat upon their argument. The guy is a loon. As for the BBC investigative journalism, they went full retard with that SAS documentary recently - I'm not convinced of their ability to investigate and present an argument, or sure of their objectivity.

[Ntv]

Chris Stott said:

Ntv said:

Read into Team Sky, and you will learn that these steroids are the go to "legal" (i.e. with a prescription) for performance enhancement. A big part of performance enhancement is recovery (a point not often appreciated by those who haven't done competitive sport of a kind that puts a premium on recovery).

All the cycling teams are doing some form of doping, but as in the LA years, some are just much better at it than others.

I don't disagree.

- recovery is very important
- amazing if there wasn't considerable amounts of doping in football, given the money
- we have had some evidence drip out over the years - e.g. Operation Puerto implicated a number of La Liga players
- it appears the controls in football are very lax ... eg. few /any unannounced tests, biological passports etc.

[Chris Stott]

I’d actually be surprised if there was widespread systematic doping at a serious level.

The sheer number of clubs and players mean it would have come out by now… a player would get in to financial difficulty and sell his story, or someone from the support staff would.

I’m sure there’s widespread minor abuse (borderline TUE’s) that’s a bit of a grey area… particularly for treating injuries. But I don’t think they are blood doping pre game and then combing off to a cocktail of post game illegal pills and injections.

Edited by Chris Stott on Wednesday 10th August 06:25

[Pommy]

Chris Stott said:

I’d actually be surprised if there was widespread systematic doping at a serious level.

The sheer number of clubs and players mean it would have come out by now… a player would get in to financial difficulty and sell his story, or someone from the support staff would.

I’m sure there’s widespread minor abuse (borderline TUE’s) that’s a bit of a grey area… particularly for treating injuries. But I don’t think they are blood doping pre game and then combing off to a cocktail of post game illegal pills and injections.

Edited by Chris Stott on Wednesday 10th August 06:25

Our club could give away free gold bars and some salty fans of other clubs would complain about the weight - not sure why we're even humouring the discussion.

[NRS]

Pommy said:

Chris Stott said:

I’d actually be surprised if there was widespread systematic doping at a serious level.

The sheer number of clubs and players mean it would have come out by now… a player would get in to financial difficulty and sell his story, or someone from the support staff would.

I’m sure there’s widespread minor abuse (borderline TUE’s) that’s a bit of a grey area… particularly for treating injuries. But I don’t think they are blood doping pre game and then combing off to a cocktail of post game illegal pills and injections.

Edited by Chris Stott on Wednesday 10th August 06:25

Our club could give away free gold bars and some salty fans of other clubs would complain about the weight - not sure why we're even humouring the discussion.

That's not about us, more football in general.

[paulrockliffe]

NRS said:

Pommy said:

Chris Stott said:

I’d actually be surprised if there was widespread systematic doping at a serious level.

The sheer number of clubs and players mean it would have come out by now… a player would get in to financial difficulty and sell his story, or someone from the support staff would.

I’m sure there’s widespread minor abuse (borderline TUE’s) that’s a bit of a grey area… particularly for treating injuries. But I don’t think they are blood doping pre game and then combing off to a cocktail of post game illegal pills and injections.

Edited by Chris Stott on Wednesday 10th August 06:25

Our club could give away free gold bars and some salty fans of other clubs would complain about the weight - not sure why we're even humouring the discussion.

That's not about us, more football in general.

Yeah, I struggle with the idea that in general money in sport correlates with drug taking basically because the rewards create incentive, but somehow football is different. I think I could maybe be persuaded otherwise if the FA, UEFA and FIFA were paragons of virtue, but given they're all only about the show and the flow of money into the game you'd struggle to persuade me that they don't all do the bare minimum, turn a blind eye and have some level of complicity with whatever doping does go on.

I think that if you were late teens/early twenties and on the fringes of a big contract, if you could rationalise your situation as a job about the money rather than a sport you're in for pleasure then you'd be easily inclined towards small risk for huge rewards. Those kids are out there for sure, but they're never caught so.....

[Flip Martian]

This is all conjecture based on how you think though. You may or may not be accurate. We don't actually know. All people have therefore really said is "I bet it goes on because of the money involved and the Authorities are crap".