Will VAR Change Football for the Better?

[Driver101]

allegro said:

Christ, just seen the Watford one too. What a mess var has become in such a short time!

It was a clear penalty.

[wjb]

ChevyChase77 said:

100% dive.

Jonny Evans yesterday?

Agreed, it was outrageous, got you three points though so you have to be pleased

[Gad-Westy]

Ahhh, VAR, the gift that keeps on taking. Yet another weekend of games overshadowed by this guff. Clunky games full of confusion, decisions seemingly still wrong and many glaring transgressions not even checked. And we still get 10 minutes of punditry focussed on wrong decisions or general bewilderment. Total shambles and as a concept it's had long enough now to iron out the issues. Utterly sick of this crap.

[ChevyChase77]

Driver101 said:

allegro said:

Christ, just seen the Watford one too. What a mess var has become in such a short time!

It was a clear penalty.

Yep. Clear as day and goes back to what I've been saying in this discussion on previous pages with regard to the Mane incident. VAR will not overrule the referees decision even though it's clearly wrong.

What a farce.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

ChevyChase77 said:

Driver101 said:

allegro said:

Christ, just seen the Watford one too. What a mess var has become in such a short time!

It was a clear penalty.

Yep. Clear as day and goes back to what I've been saying in this discussion on previous pages with regard to the Mane incident. VAR will not overrule the referees decision even though it's clearly wrong.

What a farce.

I thought the Watford one was a pen, and far more of a pen than the Mane one, which was also a pen. But again, it probably didn't fall within the remit of var. The defender at one point gets a touch on the ball and there's a tangle of legs. The question is, has the ref, seeing it from his view, made a clear and obvious error? I think he's made an error, but is it clear and obvious. maybe not.

People need to understand the rules on var for pens, as opposed to offsides and handballs.

I don't get why the deli Ali goal was allowed. Ball clearly hits the top of his arm, and under var rules, if that leads to a goal, it doesn't even have to be intentional, and should be disallowed by var. Clear and obvious error isn't a factor on a handball leading to a goal.

[Driver101]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

I thought the Watford one was a pen, and far more of a pen than the Mane one, which was also a pen. But again, it probably didn't fall within the remit of var. The defender at one point gets a touch on the ball and there's a tangle of legs. The question is, has the ref, seeing it from his view, made a clear and obvious error? I think he's made an error, but is it clear and obvious. maybe not.

People need to understand the rules on var for pens, as opposed to offsides and handballs.

I don't get why the deli Ali goal was allowed. Ball clearly hits the top of his arm, and under var rules, if that leads to a goal, it doesn't even have to be intentional, and should be disallowed by var. Clear and obvious error isn't a factor on a handball leading to a goal.

I didn't think it was his arm. I thought it was around his collarbone.

Maybe a slow motion replay might show it was an inch or two further away, but I didn't think so watching MOTD last night.

[RichB]

Watching Liverpool vs Man Utd. VAR already controversial.

Edited by RichB on Sunday 20th October 17:18

[ChocolateFrog]

RichB said:

Watching Liverpool vs Man Utd. VAR already controversial.

Edited by RichB on Sunday 20th October 17:18

Both correct though. Well atleast by the set of rules they seem to be reading from.

[monarodom]

ChocolateFrog said:

Both correct though. Well atleast by the set of rules they seem to be reading from.

Handball yes. First one no but then there is zero consistency. Burnley's was ruled out yesterday for less contact. Seems generally to be let's stick with the referee's call.

[ChocolateFrog]

monarodom said:

ChocolateFrog said:

Both correct though. Well atleast by the set of rules they seem to be reading from.

Handball yes. First one no but then there is zero consistency. Burnley's was ruled out yesterday for less contact. Seems generally to be let's stick with the referee's call.

That's what I mean. The "clear and obvious error" line means the decision has to be almost laughably wrong before they'll overturn it.

[RichB]

monarodom said:

ChocolateFrog said:

Both correct though. Well atleast by the set of rules they seem to be reading from.

Handball yes. First one no but then there is zero consistency. Burnley's was ruled out yesterday for less contact. Seems generally to be let's stick with the referee's call.

I've not seen Deli Ali's "handball" goal yesterday but as it was allowed to stand i must assume that it was less obviously handball?

[Downward]

No

[ChocolateFrog]

RichB said:

monarodom said:

ChocolateFrog said:

Both correct though. Well atleast by the set of rules they seem to be reading from.

Handball yes. First one no but then there is zero consistency. Burnley's was ruled out yesterday for less contact. Seems generally to be let's stick with the referee's call.

I've not seen Deli Ali's "handball" goal yesterday but as it was allowed to stand i must assume that it was less obviously handball?

It hit his arm between his bicep and shoulder, he got the benefit of the doubt by the skin of his teeth.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

I've always been against var. My question would be this.

Last season, without VAR, the top 3 were Citeh, Liverpool & Chelsea. The bottom 3 were 3 teams you'd expect to be in the relegation mix.

A quarter of the way into this season with var and last season's top 3 occupy 3 or the top 4 spots. The season may well end with the same top 3. The 3 at the bottom are 3 teams you'd expect to be in the relegation mix.

So we have all this nonsense, fans celebrating goals for 2 mins only to have them ruled out, fans not celebrating goals because they think it's going to go to VAR. And the final table is going to be no different!!! What's the fking point.

For years fans of small clubs have told us the refs are in the pockets of the big clubs and they get all the decisions, and var would level that bias out. So why are Norwich bottom and not top? Could it be that their footballers aren't as good as Liverpool's??

[ChevyChase77]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

ChevyChase77 said:

Driver101 said:

allegro said:

Christ, just seen the Watford one too. What a mess var has become in such a short time!

It was a clear penalty.

Yep. Clear as day and goes back to what I've been saying in this discussion on previous pages with regard to the Mane incident. VAR will not overrule the referees decision even though it's clearly wrong.

What a farce.

the Mane one, which was also a pen. .

It just wasn't.

[ChevyChase77]

ChocolateFrog said:

RichB said:

Watching Liverpool vs Man Utd. VAR already controversial.

Edited by RichB on Sunday 20th October 17:18

Both correct though. Well atleast by the set of rules they seem to be reading from.

You'd think with the level of consistency VAR was looking for at the start of the season, if they gave the Mane penalty v Leicester (which I don't think was) then they'd give the 'fou'l on Origi in the build up to United's goal. Both weren't fouls, but if you're going to give one you've got to give the other.

The only difference again depends if the ref gives it or not.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

ChevyChase77 said:

You'd think with the level of consistency VAR was looking for at the start of the season, if they gave the Mane penalty v Leicester (which I don't think was) then they'd give the 'fou'l on Origi in the build up to United's goal. Both weren't fouls, but if you're going to give one you've got to give the other.

The only difference again depends if the ref gives it or not.

That's right. Fouls (in the box or outside the box in the run up to a goal) are only overruled if it's a clear and obvious error. In both those cases, the var ref might have disagreed with the ref, but although the var thinks the ref was wrong, it wasn't clear and obvious. And that's right, as both those decisions are debatable. Neither are clear and obvious.

Var wasn't introduced to take over from the ref. It is to put right clear and obvious errors (which they weren't), and to make decisions on factual matters, like hand ball leading to a goal, and off side leading to a goal.

[ChevyChase77]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

ChevyChase77 said:

You'd think with the level of consistency VAR was looking for at the start of the season, if they gave the Mane penalty v Leicester (which I don't think was) then they'd give the 'fou'l on Origi in the build up to United's goal. Both weren't fouls, but if you're going to give one you've got to give the other.

The only difference again depends if the ref gives it or not.

That's right. Fouls (in the box or outside the box in the run up to a goal) are only overruled if it's a clear and obvious error. In both those cases, the var ref might have disagreed with the ref, but although the var thinks the ref was wrong, it wasn't clear and obvious. And that's right, as both those decisions are debatable. Neither are clear and obvious.

Var wasn't introduced to take over from the ref. It is to put right clear and obvious errors (which they weren't), and to make decisions on factual matters, like hand ball leading to a goal, and off side leading to a goal.

They were both clear and obvious in that they were not fouls.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

ChevyChase77 said:

TwigtheWonderkid said:

ChevyChase77 said:

You'd think with the level of consistency VAR was looking for at the start of the season, if they gave the Mane penalty v Leicester (which I don't think was) then they'd give the 'fou'l on Origi in the build up to United's goal. Both weren't fouls, but if you're going to give one you've got to give the other.

The only difference again depends if the ref gives it or not.

That's right. Fouls (in the box or outside the box in the run up to a goal) are only overruled if it's a clear and obvious error. In both those cases, the var ref might have disagreed with the ref, but although the var thinks the ref was wrong, it wasn't clear and obvious. And that's right, as both those decisions are debatable. Neither are clear and obvious.

Var wasn't introduced to take over from the ref. It is to put right clear and obvious errors (which they weren't), and to make decisions on factual matters, like hand ball leading to a goal, and off side leading to a goal.

They were both clear and obvious in that they were not fouls.

You keep banging this drum, but the fact that others say otherwise means it's not clear and obvious. Just a matter of perception.

Here is the red car for Brighton's Andone against Southampton earlier this season. That's what I'd call clear and obvious. Anyone arguing about this one?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFZjItW2yVk

[ChevyChase77]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

ChevyChase77 said:

TwigtheWonderkid said:

ChevyChase77 said:

You'd think with the level of consistency VAR was looking for at the start of the season, if they gave the Mane penalty v Leicester (which I don't think was) then they'd give the 'fou'l on Origi in the build up to United's goal. Both weren't fouls, but if you're going to give one you've got to give the other.

The only difference again depends if the ref gives it or not.

That's right. Fouls (in the box or outside the box in the run up to a goal) are only overruled if it's a clear and obvious error. In both those cases, the var ref might have disagreed with the ref, but although the var thinks the ref was wrong, it wasn't clear and obvious. And that's right, as both those decisions are debatable. Neither are clear and obvious.

Var wasn't introduced to take over from the ref. It is to put right clear and obvious errors (which they weren't), and to make decisions on factual matters, like hand ball leading to a goal, and off side leading to a goal.

They were both clear and obvious in that they were not fouls.

You keep banging this drum, but the fact that others say otherwise means it's not clear and obvious. Just a matter of perception.

Here is the red car for Brighton's Andone against Southampton earlier this season. That's what I'd call clear and obvious. Anyone arguing about this one?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFZjItW2yVk

I keep banging this drum because it's true.