The Official Liverpool FC Thread [Vol 11]
Discussion
Flip Martian said:
Turquoise said:
I didn't see that reported. And by the contributions of the others posters, neither did they, so single me out by all means but I'm not alone in this being new news.
You did say Can was "dropped so Henderson could get a game".When your captain's main asset is his fitness, something's amiss. He inspires no-one. My opinion on this isn't going to change.
NRS said:
joshcowin said:
I trust that Klopp knows far more about football then I do, I trust he knows far more about each player than I do, I trust he knows more about the opposition as well! I would imagine he has the intelligence and professionalism to play the team he believes best for each game depending on various factors. Including how each player has performed/responded in the week of training he has spent with them!
Why even attempt to second guess or criticise why he made a decision.
The reason for this forum is to voice our opinions and share in the joys/hard times of supporting our preferred club, but it has become so negative with people looking at the tiniest little reasons to have a moan. Cheer up look at the positives, they are there!!
Why ever replace a manager then? They will always see more than us, so obviously they always know best? Klopp is basically repeating the same issues as Rodgers - attack at all costs when we have big issues defending, and try and play players in positions they don't want to/ are not natural to them, rather than buy a dedicated person who has always played there.Why even attempt to second guess or criticise why he made a decision.
The reason for this forum is to voice our opinions and share in the joys/hard times of supporting our preferred club, but it has become so negative with people looking at the tiniest little reasons to have a moan. Cheer up look at the positives, they are there!!
NRS said:
- The defense having to cover for Moreno and so leave more gaps in the other defensive positions/ play someone out of positon as a replacement for Moreno. Klopp obviously thinks Moreno is not good enough to play if he is putting a midfielder there, so why not get a real dedicated person instead? It's like trying to retrain Gerrard all over again.
Turquoise said:
Flip Martian said:
Turquoise said:
I didn't see that reported. And by the contributions of the others posters, neither did they, so single me out by all means but I'm not alone in this being new news.
You did say Can was "dropped so Henderson could get a game".When your captain's main asset is his fitness, something's amiss. He inspires no-one. My opinion on this isn't going to change.
As much as we don't like it, Henderson was bought as Gerrard's replacement, he plays week in, week out. I can see Can taking over for him, but not until next season at the earliest.
Turquoise said:
Is he playing week in week because he's the captain though?
His performances don't seem to merit it.
Again, who's going to take his place. I'd argue Milner is like for like, though Milner doesn't necessarily like to sit back so much, nor is Milner the future at 30. Gruijic is still raw, Can coming back from injury, Lucas injury prone, Allen is like for like. Why remove his captaincy and unsettle the team if there isn't much improvement? Plus, he's coming back from a lot of time out last season - lets give him some time and see if he can get back to his 13/14 best!His performances don't seem to merit it.
Paul Joyce - FSG willing to sell a stake in LFC
Great post on Reddit for what this means for LFC:
Great post on Reddit for what this means for LFC:
/u/SidJag said:
Im not sure everyone understands the financial implications here for involved parties.
Things are being over simplified. LFC is NOT about to get GBP 800M.
I'll attempt to elaborate briefly:
Btw, a similar investment was made by another Chinese group to pick up 10% in Man City last year.
Things are being over simplified. LFC is NOT about to get GBP 800M.
I'll attempt to elaborate briefly:
- FSG are a business. The purpose of all business is to create value (make money). FSG have invested decent amount of cash into LFC, beyond the initial purchase. Theyve ofcourse stabilised the debt situation, increased commercial revenues, enhanced the stadium and relative to Hicks/Gillette, at least attempted to give the team a chance at success. Theyre vehemently denying the outright sale of LFC, its likely that the recent Werner interview is to manage PR with the incoming 'minority sale'. Make no mistake, as with all other business investors, the plan was always to make money, at least by the 5-7 year mark. (FSG came in 2010)
- For the state backed Chinese fund to invest in LFC, makes very little financial sense. Not only is the ticket size/investment amount trivial (USD 1B would be ~0.125% of their USD 800B+ Assets), these funds usually target a 20-25% IRR and a 'business' like LFC is unlikely to deliver this (unless the plan is to run it like Arsenal, i.e. generate cash annually, but not necessarily invest in the team with a target to win major trophies - just enough to maintain the required annual cash flows.) Neither are they likely to make LFC a public listed entity and make bank during an IPO/QPO (another classic route how funds generate money from successful investments).
Btw, a similar investment was made by another Chinese group to pick up 10% in Man City last year.
- For FSG (theyre the current 'private' investor/owner of LFC) to 'make money', the CIC would need to agree to a secondary sale i.e. part of the money they invest goes directly to the current shareholders and NOT into the business. Say, the club is valued at Pre-money USD 1B and a 49% stake is agreed to be sold to CIC i.e. post-investment to hold that share, CIC would need to invest USD ~750M. But this would all be a primary sale i.e. the entire amount would sit with LFC, the current stakeholders dont get anything, apart from being 51% owners of an entity formally valued at USD 1.5B post-investment.
- FSG have invested approx. GBP 350M into LFC till date. Simplistically, for a 15% IRR over 5 years, they would want this amount to be worth at least GBP 700M today. The value being reported in the media is GBP 800M, considering the 350M was invested over time and not all 5 years ago, FSG are likely targetting a 20-25% IRR. To FSG's benefit 2016-17 specifically is a landmark year for LFC, in enhanced revenues (both from new PL TV deal and the additional stadium capacity - to think, with additional 50M from Champions League, had we won the EL final!). Our Net spend in the transfer window is positive. They've secured the long-term future of a very desirable top-level coaching team.
- For FSG to take money home, the deal will hence be a mixture of primary & secondary sale i.e. not all the money will be made available for LFC to spend if/when the deal happens. I'd wager at least GBP 400M (or USD 500M) FSG will want to take home i.e. assuming a 49% sale with the above math, approx. USD 250M will be made available for LFC to spend - more than enough to overhaul Melwood, make major marquee signings over multiple windows, catch-up to the 'big club' wage structures and further expand Anfield. (the figure will be halved if say the sale is for 26% stake)
FSG are excellent at what they do. They make money. Even last season if it wasn't for the walk out they'd have made a little bit more money. I remember that leaked presentation of theirs. Honestly, I hate the likes of FSG more than a club being owned by a billionaire as his toy or a state as their pr arm. At least with the last 2 their aim isn't to squeeze out every last penny.
Back to the team, Milner as first choice left back is a joke. So what f he looked OK in a couple of pre season friendlies. We either have the money or we don't to target and buy someone.
And Henderson, forget captain, he shouldn't even be on the pitch. I'd actually play Milner there ahead of him next to Can. It's not ideal but a Can Milner partnership is better than any combination of anything else.
FFS Klopp, just go and at least buy a genuine left back that is an upgrade on Moreno. That can't be too hard.
Back to the team, Milner as first choice left back is a joke. So what f he looked OK in a couple of pre season friendlies. We either have the money or we don't to target and buy someone.
And Henderson, forget captain, he shouldn't even be on the pitch. I'd actually play Milner there ahead of him next to Can. It's not ideal but a Can Milner partnership is better than any combination of anything else.
FFS Klopp, just go and at least buy a genuine left back that is an upgrade on Moreno. That can't be too hard.
Pommygranite said:
FSP and Neil Mellor? Da fuq?!
Guessing its individual moments in our history (Panathinaikos comeback?) rather than overall contribution. Bloody weird - there are hundreds of players I'd put above Babel, FSP and Mellor (although Mellor should have some recognition for that goal against Arsenal at Anfield). Igor will be wondering where HIS wall is...
Turquoise said:
I don't think Henderson warrants a place in the side and certainly not the captaincy.
When your captain's main asset is his fitness, something's amiss. He inspires no-one. My opinion on this isn't going to change.
Not disagreeing with you - at the moment, Henderson warranted being captain in waiting in our last good season - he's gone backwards since then; mainly to fitness issues perhaps but maybe also the captaincy is just something he doesn't cope well with. When your captain's main asset is his fitness, something's amiss. He inspires no-one. My opinion on this isn't going to change.
NRS said:
joshcowin said:
I trust that Klopp knows far more about football then I do, I trust he knows far more about each player than I do, I trust he knows more about the opposition as well! I would imagine he has the intelligence and professionalism to play the team he believes best for each game depending on various factors. Including how each player has performed/responded in the week of training he has spent with them!
Why even attempt to second guess or criticise why he made a decision.
The reason for this forum is to voice our opinions and share in the joys/hard times of supporting our preferred club, but it has become so negative with people looking at the tiniest little reasons to have a moan. Cheer up look at the positives, they are there!!
Why ever replace a manager then? They will always see more than us, so obviously they always know best? Klopp is basically repeating the same issues as Rodgers - attack at all costs when we have big issues defending, and try and play players in positions they don't want to/ are not natural to them, rather than buy a dedicated person who has always played there.Why even attempt to second guess or criticise why he made a decision.
The reason for this forum is to voice our opinions and share in the joys/hard times of supporting our preferred club, but it has become so negative with people looking at the tiniest little reasons to have a moan. Cheer up look at the positives, they are there!!
joshcowin said:
'I'm amazed Can is being benched so the captain can get a game.' - Klopp tell you that was the reason??
The negativity is depressing, support the team and manager, we have played 2 PL games!!
YNWA
You'll find all the negative people are supporting the team. It's just we don't understand how we will be better than previous seasons when we have not bought anyone to fix the main two issues (that a lot of fans agree on).The negativity is depressing, support the team and manager, we have played 2 PL games!!
YNWA
If we should not be negative what do you see as the big improvements from last season that will move us finishing from 5-8th to finishing higher in the league?
I can see Mane as a big improvement. He might get us 4-5 extra goals during the season? Perhaps 1-2 wins extra then? In terms of those injured; maybe the new goalkeeper will help get a few extra points compared to Mignolets mistakes, perhaps the same with a taller defender to help clear high balls.
However I see us losing a lot of "silly" points because of:
- The gap between the (only) attacking midfield and the defense since there is only Can to play as a defensive midfielder
- The defense having to cover for Moreno and so leave more gaps in the other defensive positions/ play someone out of positon as a replacement for Moreno. Klopp obviously thinks Moreno is not good enough to play if he is putting a midfielder there, so why not get a real dedicated person instead? It's like trying to retrain Gerrard all over again.
I cannot tell you the main improvements I feel we have made as I have only watched 2 PL games, and a few warm up games, and therefore have not really thought much about it! I would say Mane, Klavan, Couthinio and Mingolet have all looked good for spells in games we have played however they have also looked shakey, especially Couthinio on Saturday!
I agree it is not ideal Milner playing LB (I love Flanno) but I believe he can play in there and as always will give everything he has!
As for buying new players, it would be great but it is not always a proven route to success in that position! I think Milly will be fine there, part of me wants him to play alberto alot aswell and turn him into a quality defender, all he needs to do is learn how to play football :-)
SilverSpur said:
According to wiki, Mellor made 22 appearances and scored 6 goals..... in four seasons.
An Anfield great, clearly....
Now if he'd scored a cup winning goal perhaps...?
its a nope from me.
Doesn't seem to be about Anfield greats but those who contributed to great moments. The Panathinaikos come back involving him and Pongolle was a great moment but still a weird choice.An Anfield great, clearly....
Now if he'd scored a cup winning goal perhaps...?
its a nope from me.
Olympiakos, not Panathinaikos...
Sinama Pongolle, at the age of 31, now plays in Thailand. Not one of Gerard's most inspired signings!
Edited by Flip Martian on Monday 22 August 14:22
jammy_basturd said:
NRS said:
joshcowin said:
I trust that Klopp knows far more about football then I do, I trust he knows far more about each player than I do, I trust he knows more about the opposition as well! I would imagine he has the intelligence and professionalism to play the team he believes best for each game depending on various factors. Including how each player has performed/responded in the week of training he has spent with them!
Why even attempt to second guess or criticise why he made a decision.
The reason for this forum is to voice our opinions and share in the joys/hard times of supporting our preferred club, but it has become so negative with people looking at the tiniest little reasons to have a moan. Cheer up look at the positives, they are there!!
Why ever replace a manager then? They will always see more than us, so obviously they always know best? Klopp is basically repeating the same issues as Rodgers - attack at all costs when we have big issues defending, and try and play players in positions they don't want to/ are not natural to them, rather than buy a dedicated person who has always played there.Why even attempt to second guess or criticise why he made a decision.
The reason for this forum is to voice our opinions and share in the joys/hard times of supporting our preferred club, but it has become so negative with people looking at the tiniest little reasons to have a moan. Cheer up look at the positives, they are there!!
NRS said:
- The defense having to cover for Moreno and so leave more gaps in the other defensive positions/ play someone out of positon as a replacement for Moreno. Klopp obviously thinks Moreno is not good enough to play if he is putting a midfielder there, so why not get a real dedicated person instead? It's like trying to retrain Gerrard all over again.
It's all well and good Klopp having that philosophy, but it doesn't work with the midfield players/ set up we have now. The only real variation we have in midfield compared to last season is Mane. Apart from that basically everyone is the same/ the same type of player. In an extreme (and stupid) example we could argue it would be better to play 10 strikers as we would get lots of goals. Of course it doesn't work like that. So why play with a midfield full of attacking midfielders/ no. 10's? Is it not better to have a few different types of players who contrast with each other in what they can do, and so improve the team that way? I strongly believe some of our current midfield players would actually play better if they had some different types of players around them, rather than being clones of each other.
NRS said:
I strongly believe some of our current midfield players would actually play better if they had some different types of players around them, rather than being clones of each other.
in a 4231 its only one of Lallana, Coutinho or Firmino for me. So in reality it is Coutinho.Firmino is really now our plan b striker. I think he's average to poor when he plays as an attacking midfielder. He's much better in a 433 as a false 9.
In a 4231 the 3 attacking midfielders i think are one of
Mane or Mane - thats all we have in terms of direct, pace etc
Lallana/Coutinho/Firmino
Wijnaldum/Grujic
I'd like to see an attacking 3 of Mane Grujic/Wijnaldum and Coutinho. 3 different types of players rather than 3 clones in Lallana, Firmino and Coutinho.
A friend of mine sent me this link regarding Henderson as defensive midfielder. Add it to the earlier video. Not good viewing at all.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFYy1DpjE4s#action...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFYy1DpjE4s#action...
[quote=Flip Martian]
Doesn't seem to be about Anfield greats but those who contributed to great moments. The Panathinaikos come back involving him and Pongolle was a great moment but still a weird choice.
Olympiakos, not Panathinaikos...
Sinama Pongolle, at the age of 31, now plays in Thailand. Not one of Gerard's most inspired signings!
Not sure if you get to the ground much Flip but they have these in other stands that i can remember..not walls like this but signs high up to the side.. there is certainly one for Babbel in the centernary stand and I'm sure Mellor tbh ...RT might be able to confirm if he goes in and looks up...
Doesn't seem to be about Anfield greats but those who contributed to great moments. The Panathinaikos come back involving him and Pongolle was a great moment but still a weird choice.
Olympiakos, not Panathinaikos...
Sinama Pongolle, at the age of 31, now plays in Thailand. Not one of Gerard's most inspired signings!
Edited by Flip Martian on Monday 22 August 14:22
[/quot9e]Not sure if you get to the ground much Flip but they have these in other stands that i can remember..not walls like this but signs high up to the side.. there is certainly one for Babbel in the centernary stand and I'm sure Mellor tbh ...RT might be able to confirm if he goes in and looks up...
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