No red, not a yellow, but take a blue!
Discussion
coldel said:
johnboy1975 said:
[bold text]I get it (I really do) but to me there's a world of difference between being pissed off at a good decision gone against you, and being pissed off at a terrible decision gone against you[/bold text]
Dyche's 3 yellows were all for valid complaints (IMO, and Everton bias possibly showing). I think one was for the no yellow for the obvious 2nd yellow for Konate when he hauled one of our players down in the Derby? Postscript - Much frothing from Klopp when Konate was correctly sent off for two yellows against Arsenal- the 2nd yellow was nigh on identical...
Then you have Klopp doing summersaults along the touchline and no card, but others step outside the technical area and get booked. Doubt the unbiased commentary team will call this out?
Asking for consistency is a fools errard, but I feel we have to try. At PL level at least with retrospective yellows / yellows removed on appeal. Not entirely sure you can appeal a yellow currently?
But how would a player know at the time if the decision was right or not? How many players dont actually know a lot of the more intricate rules. How many complain about being called offside when they are clearly offside? Even if when a decision goes against you and you saw the ball come off their player for a throw in, its just a bloody throw in yet they go into histrionics like the ref just blew a whistle and relegated them. Dyche's 3 yellows were all for valid complaints (IMO, and Everton bias possibly showing). I think one was for the no yellow for the obvious 2nd yellow for Konate when he hauled one of our players down in the Derby? Postscript - Much frothing from Klopp when Konate was correctly sent off for two yellows against Arsenal- the 2nd yellow was nigh on identical...
Then you have Klopp doing summersaults along the touchline and no card, but others step outside the technical area and get booked. Doubt the unbiased commentary team will call this out?
Asking for consistency is a fools errard, but I feel we have to try. At PL level at least with retrospective yellows / yellows removed on appeal. Not entirely sure you can appeal a yellow currently?
As for consistency, the refs apply the law as and when they see it. They are also instructed by the association to take into account context, and other factors, it is subjective. But thats how players and managers want it, that they want refs to take the situation into account - only they dont like it when it doesn't work in their favour.
One thing I do like is when you have an ex-pro ref involved, you get the pundits going 'oh thats a yellow all day stonewall yellow' then the ref explains the actual rules which then show why the ref didnt give one and then the pundit says 'well ok yea erm well in my book thats a yellow' - which is the main problem, players and managers dont know all the rules.
Re the last bit...much is made of "Amber" cards, the commentator's cop out (along with, of course, "seen 'em given"). Which, to drag things back on topic, is where I thought blue cards would target. Which they do in a way, so we'll have to see how it goes. Can't wait for three similar incidents to be shown, 1 gets nothing, 1 gets a yellow, 1 gets a blue.
Laudable idea (maybe) but without consistency, fans, managers and players will just froth into the void. Which, in one form or another, has ever been thus.
(And to drag it back off topic...) Clipped in the box? It's a pen. Unless you're Forest, in which case it's no further action (reference the Forest - Newcastle game). And I say that happy at the decided outcome, but I can definitely see why Forest fans aren't happy. And I can see why officials get a hard time, they are damned if they do, and damned if they don't
(And extra cameras mean extra analysis which means extra pressure...would I do it for £500 quid a match or whatever they are on? Not on your Nelly 
)johnboy1975 said:
I've not seen many kick off against even fractional offsides? There does seem to be a mentality of "if I'm off I'm off". You do see the defending team call loudly for an offside, as if that adds more weight to the decision. With VAR it doesn't, without it... possibly
Re the last bit...much is made of "Amber" cards, the commentator's cop out (along with, of course, "seen 'em given"). Which, to drag things back on topic, is where I thought blue cards would target. Which they do in a way, so we'll have to see how it goes. Can't wait for three similar incidents to be shown, 1 gets nothing, 1 gets a yellow, 1 gets a blue.
Laudable idea (maybe) but without consistency, fans, managers and players will just froth into the void. Which, in one form or another, has ever been thus.
(And to drag it back off topic...) Clipped in the box? It's a pen. Unless you're Forest, in which case it's no further action (reference the Forest - Newcastle game). And I say that happy at the decided outcome, but I can definitely see why Forest fans aren't happy. And I can see why officials get a hard time, they are damned if they do, and damned if they don't (And extra cameras mean extra analysis which means extra pressure...would I do it for £500 quid a match or whatever they are on? Not on your Nelly )
You're miles off,basic pay for Premier League referee is £70k pa plus £1,500 per gameRe the last bit...much is made of "Amber" cards, the commentator's cop out (along with, of course, "seen 'em given"). Which, to drag things back on topic, is where I thought blue cards would target. Which they do in a way, so we'll have to see how it goes. Can't wait for three similar incidents to be shown, 1 gets nothing, 1 gets a yellow, 1 gets a blue.
Laudable idea (maybe) but without consistency, fans, managers and players will just froth into the void. Which, in one form or another, has ever been thus.
(And to drag it back off topic...) Clipped in the box? It's a pen. Unless you're Forest, in which case it's no further action (reference the Forest - Newcastle game). And I say that happy at the decided outcome, but I can definitely see why Forest fans aren't happy. And I can see why officials get a hard time, they are damned if they do, and damned if they don't
(And extra cameras mean extra analysis which means extra pressure...would I do it for £500 quid a match or whatever they are on? Not on your Nelly )
Yes top level referees get a retainer then earn on top of that by the game. Its a good salary, but it has to be, you cant pay someone 25k a year to manage a premier league match where teams can go bankrupt off the back of a referees decision - refs needed to be working full time, attend all the training and courses over the season, and be paid enough and contracted.
Danny Murphy wasnt it? He is very much in the camp of 'dont change anything' although his version of football is very different to what football was like just 40 or 50 years ago when I am sure if he was around then would have been 'dont change anything' - basically the sort of person that would have opposed red and yellow cards being introduced probably because it would have 'confused everyone', or goalkeepers being allowed gloves because 'they should be tough enough' and so on.
Yes 'taking one for the team' was so frustrating to see, Blackburn getting that break, a hard fought chance to break after sustained pressure and boom the guy just wrestles him for a yellow and a non event freekick on the halfway line. Totally ruined the moment as a spectacle (if we want to use the VAR thing around ruining the moment as a reason).
Yes 'taking one for the team' was so frustrating to see, Blackburn getting that break, a hard fought chance to break after sustained pressure and boom the guy just wrestles him for a yellow and a non event freekick on the halfway line. Totally ruined the moment as a spectacle (if we want to use the VAR thing around ruining the moment as a reason).
coldel said:
Danny Murphy wasnt it? He is very much in the camp of 'dont change anything' although his version of football is very different to what football was like just 40 or 50 years ago when I am sure if he was around then would have been 'dont change anything' - basically the sort of person that would have opposed red and yellow cards being introduced probably because it would have 'confused everyone', or goalkeepers being allowed gloves because 'they should be tough enough' and so on.
Yes 'taking one for the team' was so frustrating to see, Blackburn getting that break, a hard fought chance to break after sustained pressure and boom the guy just wrestles him for a yellow and a non event freekick on the halfway line. Totally ruined the moment as a spectacle (if we want to use the VAR thing around ruining the moment as a reason).
Yeah, probably, wasn't sure. A lot of these old skool footballers are very resistant to change. It's hard because changes to football are so rare that no-one expects them and when they do happen it's met with horror. In other sports they just accept it as part of the development of the game.Yes 'taking one for the team' was so frustrating to see, Blackburn getting that break, a hard fought chance to break after sustained pressure and boom the guy just wrestles him for a yellow and a non event freekick on the halfway line. Totally ruined the moment as a spectacle (if we want to use the VAR thing around ruining the moment as a reason).
Separately it does seem (and is) so disrespectful when a player is shown a card but is already walking off with his back to the ref.
Frimley111R said:
Yeah, probably, wasn't sure. A lot of these old skool footballers are very resistant to change. It's hard because changes to football are so rare that no-one expects them and when they do happen it's met with horror. In other sports they just accept it as part of the development of the game.
Separately it does seem (and is) so disrespectful when a player is shown a card but is already walking off with his back to the ref.
The funny thing is, football as Danny Murphy knows it, has gone through such huge change over the years to get it to the 'perfect' set up it is as he sees it. Danny Murphy of 1950 would think the same, Danny Murphy of 2080 will think the same.Separately it does seem (and is) so disrespectful when a player is shown a card but is already walking off with his back to the ref.
And yes the turning of the back is just one of so many disrespectful things players do to officials, its just a symptom of a general underlying issue with respect in the game.
coldel said:
Danny Murphy wasnt it? He is very much in the camp of 'dont change anything' although his version of football is very different to what football was like just 40 or 50 years ago when I am sure if he was around then would have been 'dont change anything' - basically the sort of person that would have opposed red and yellow cards being introduced probably because it would have 'confused everyone', or goalkeepers being allowed gloves because 'they should be tough enough' and so on.
Yes 'taking one for the team' was so frustrating to see, Blackburn getting that break, a hard fought chance to break after sustained pressure and boom the guy just wrestles him for a yellow and a non event freekick on the halfway line. Totally ruined the moment as a spectacle (if we want to use the VAR thing around ruining the moment as a reason).
Yeah, it was frustrating when a Blackburn player did exactly the same to us, attempting to climb over Bruno. Did you miss that?Yes 'taking one for the team' was so frustrating to see, Blackburn getting that break, a hard fought chance to break after sustained pressure and boom the guy just wrestles him for a yellow and a non event freekick on the halfway line. Totally ruined the moment as a spectacle (if we want to use the VAR thing around ruining the moment as a reason).
I think the standard of refereeing is pretty good in the Premier League, and the stats would tend to agree. There are a few fallacies at play:
We only remember the decisions they get wrong, we dont remember the ones they get right
We don't notice the ones where the ref lets game continue when a player wanted a decision and the ref decided against it
We don't know the rules and incorrectly judge the ref to have made a mistake when its actually us
There have been a number of studies of refereeing in the PL and last one showed that a referee gets around 98% of decisions correct, they make decisions around 250 times per match which is one every 20 seconds, some are visible ie a whistle blown some are not ie referee decides that no infringement took place and play continues.
Looking at their physical stats is quite impressive, over 800 changes in direction each game, 1400 activity changes each game, the levels of concentration over 90 mins is quite staggering. When you think players get those breaks the ref is 'always on'.
We only remember the decisions they get wrong, we dont remember the ones they get right
We don't notice the ones where the ref lets game continue when a player wanted a decision and the ref decided against it
We don't know the rules and incorrectly judge the ref to have made a mistake when its actually us
There have been a number of studies of refereeing in the PL and last one showed that a referee gets around 98% of decisions correct, they make decisions around 250 times per match which is one every 20 seconds, some are visible ie a whistle blown some are not ie referee decides that no infringement took place and play continues.
Looking at their physical stats is quite impressive, over 800 changes in direction each game, 1400 activity changes each game, the levels of concentration over 90 mins is quite staggering. When you think players get those breaks the ref is 'always on'.
Frimley111R said:
Yeah, probably, wasn't sure. A lot of these old skool footballers are very resistant to change. It's hard because changes to football are so rare that no-one expects them and when they do happen it's met with horror. In other sports they just accept it as part of the development of the game.
Separately it does seem (and is) so disrespectful when a player is shown a card but is already walking off with his back to the ref.
You're wrong about changes being extremely rare.New rules, or changes to existing rules,come in before every new season and as a result we get these continuous arguments.Separately it does seem (and is) so disrespectful when a player is shown a card but is already walking off with his back to the ref.
We've gone from being able to almost decapitate a player to the slightest touch being deemed a foul .
Remember when strikers used to barge goalkeepers into the net and it was legitimate.Football rules have changed massively,not always for the better of fairness or spectacle
Bluevanman said:
You're wrong about changes being extremely rare.New rules, or changes to existing rules,come in before every new season and as a result we get these continuous arguments.
We've gone from being able to almost decapitate a player to the slightest touch being deemed a foul .
Remember when strikers used to barge goalkeepers into the net and it was legitimate.Football rules have changed massively,not always for the better of fairness or spectacle
There are every seasons small technical changes for sure. Obviously the focus comes in on the very visible changes. We've gone from being able to almost decapitate a player to the slightest touch being deemed a foul .
Remember when strikers used to barge goalkeepers into the net and it was legitimate.Football rules have changed massively,not always for the better of fairness or spectacle
Unfortunately we have players, that on the whole, cheat. There is no getting away from it. They disrespect officials and they cheat. Now, it brings the question, can you solve that with rules i.e. blue cards, or, does it get solved at the core of the problem which is the players and staff who have no respect for officials and will cheat to gain an advantage. The latter is the correct option, but also the most difficult.
coldel said:
There are every seasons small technical changes for sure. Obviously the focus comes in on the very visible changes.
Unfortunately we have players, that on the whole, cheat. There is no getting away from it. They disrespect officials and they cheat. Now, it brings the question, can you solve that with rules i.e. blue cards, or, does it get solved at the core of the problem which is the players and staff who have no respect for officials and will cheat to gain an advantage. The latter is the correct option, but also the most difficult.
Cheating is endemic, it's coached into them at an early ageUnfortunately we have players, that on the whole, cheat. There is no getting away from it. They disrespect officials and they cheat. Now, it brings the question, can you solve that with rules i.e. blue cards, or, does it get solved at the core of the problem which is the players and staff who have no respect for officials and will cheat to gain an advantage. The latter is the correct option, but also the most difficult.
Bluevanman said:
Cheating is endemic, it's coached into them at an early age
I think you are right to a degree. My son is 12 and plays in a reasonably big friendly organisation of football near us, they have 5-6 teams at every age group and they have really good ethics around football and how you play, but I can imagine though at professional level this isn't the case. coldel said:
I think you are right to a degree. My son is 12 and plays in a reasonably big friendly organisation of football near us, they have 5-6 teams at every age group and they have really good ethics around football and how you play, but I can imagine though at professional level this isn't the case.
Definitely, it's a shame these professional state of the art academies don't teach them to kick with both feet instead of teaching them to throw themselves to the floor if they feel any contact coldel said:
Unfortunately we have players, that on the whole, cheat. There is no getting away from it. They disrespect officials and they cheat. Now, it brings the question, can you solve that with rules i.e. blue cards, or, does it get solved at the core of the problem which is the players and staff who have no respect for officials and will cheat to gain an advantage. The latter is the correct option, but also the most difficult.
Yes, it is almost impossible to change the entire culture of football but rules and cards etc are the most practical way to do so.ajap1979 said:
coldel said:
Danny Murphy wasnt it? He is very much in the camp of 'dont change anything' although his version of football is very different to what football was like just 40 or 50 years ago when I am sure if he was around then would have been 'dont change anything' - basically the sort of person that would have opposed red and yellow cards being introduced probably because it would have 'confused everyone', or goalkeepers being allowed gloves because 'they should be tough enough' and so on.
Yes 'taking one for the team' was so frustrating to see, Blackburn getting that break, a hard fought chance to break after sustained pressure and boom the guy just wrestles him for a yellow and a non event freekick on the halfway line. Totally ruined the moment as a spectacle (if we want to use the VAR thing around ruining the moment as a reason).
Yeah, it was frustrating when a Blackburn player did exactly the same to us, attempting to climb over Bruno. Did you miss that?Yes 'taking one for the team' was so frustrating to see, Blackburn getting that break, a hard fought chance to break after sustained pressure and boom the guy just wrestles him for a yellow and a non event freekick on the halfway line. Totally ruined the moment as a spectacle (if we want to use the VAR thing around ruining the moment as a reason).
coldel said:
I think the standard of refereeing is pretty good in the Premier League, and the stats would tend to agree. There are a few fallacies at play:
We only remember the decisions they get wrong, we dont remember the ones they get right
We don't notice the ones where the ref lets game continue when a player wanted a decision and the ref decided against it
We don't know the rules and incorrectly judge the ref to have made a mistake when its actually us
There have been a number of studies of refereeing in the PL and last one showed that a referee gets around 98% of decisions correct, they make decisions around 250 times per match which is one every 20 seconds, some are visible ie a whistle blown some are not ie referee decides that no infringement took place and play continues.
Looking at their physical stats is quite impressive, over 800 changes in direction each game, 1400 activity changes each game, the levels of concentration over 90 mins is quite staggering. When you think players get those breaks the ref is 'always on'.
The media make a huge deal of all the decisions that happened to be contentious/wrong and so it all gets blown up out of proportion, especially when you consider the point you make here. That's the toxicity of the media in general. Footy fans would rather moan about the few VAR decisions that maybe weren't right than focus on how many decisions they correctly identified. We only remember the decisions they get wrong, we dont remember the ones they get right
We don't notice the ones where the ref lets game continue when a player wanted a decision and the ref decided against it
We don't know the rules and incorrectly judge the ref to have made a mistake when its actually us
There have been a number of studies of refereeing in the PL and last one showed that a referee gets around 98% of decisions correct, they make decisions around 250 times per match which is one every 20 seconds, some are visible ie a whistle blown some are not ie referee decides that no infringement took place and play continues.
Looking at their physical stats is quite impressive, over 800 changes in direction each game, 1400 activity changes each game, the levels of concentration over 90 mins is quite staggering. When you think players get those breaks the ref is 'always on'.
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