The Official Manchester United Thread [vol 7]
Discussion
JustinF said:
what Arsenal thread? also how many post have I made here (please compare to yours on the Spurs thread)
No one is interested and if you can't contribute properly to an actual discussion about Utd team/tactics/stories why bother coming and ranting and looking like a prat? It obviously makes you angry and wound up. Thank you selym!!
I think most managers have a plan and a way they want to set up the team, and their own style of man management. That doesn’t work unless he also has a say in transfers.
I don’t get why you need a DoF.
Why can’t the following work:
board and manager agree where they need to strengthen
board gives the manager the criteria (eg under 25, good resale potential, no idiot agents etc)
the manager works within those criteria.
Scouts and manager comes up with a list of possible targets and likely cost.
Board starts negotiations and list gets tweaked or narrowed down depending on how negotiations go
If the need is urgent the budget can increase but manager needs to select 1 or 2 urgencies they can’t all be (eg for Liverpool it was CB and GK so high fees were signed off)
I think most managers have a plan and a way they want to set up the team, and their own style of man management. That doesn’t work unless he also has a say in transfers.
I don’t get why you need a DoF.
Why can’t the following work:
board and manager agree where they need to strengthen
board gives the manager the criteria (eg under 25, good resale potential, no idiot agents etc)
the manager works within those criteria.
Scouts and manager comes up with a list of possible targets and likely cost.
Board starts negotiations and list gets tweaked or narrowed down depending on how negotiations go
If the need is urgent the budget can increase but manager needs to select 1 or 2 urgencies they can’t all be (eg for Liverpool it was CB and GK so high fees were signed off)
That approach is pretty much what we have been doing, possibly barring some of the guidance on target criteria. I think the problem with it is that it requires there to be some serious football nous in the boardroom -otherwise it becomes a situation where they lay out the financial / commercial criteria and the manager has the say on everything football. That may not sound a problem, and in an environment where managerial positions are a) long term (5+ years) and b) the managerial playing style is aligned to the clubs / fans, it would not be.
If you overlay that onto what we have though, since SAF left - 6 years, 3 managers, 3 playing styles (assuming Moyes had a style) and as a result you get a mess of recruitment of differing players which we are still trying to sort out. That stems from a lack of footballing outlook higher up. Sure we have SAF and Sir Bobby as non execs, but you need someone whose job it is to manage this side.
Put a DOF / Football element into the board that can guide the recruitment also with a long term view of style and approach and some of those players bought probably would not have happened. It would also help to ensure we appoint managers who work the same way. It's something Bayern do very well and have for a long time, City also are very good at that now.
If you overlay that onto what we have though, since SAF left - 6 years, 3 managers, 3 playing styles (assuming Moyes had a style) and as a result you get a mess of recruitment of differing players which we are still trying to sort out. That stems from a lack of footballing outlook higher up. Sure we have SAF and Sir Bobby as non execs, but you need someone whose job it is to manage this side.
Put a DOF / Football element into the board that can guide the recruitment also with a long term view of style and approach and some of those players bought probably would not have happened. It would also help to ensure we appoint managers who work the same way. It's something Bayern do very well and have for a long time, City also are very good at that now.
Edited by bstb3 on Thursday 23 August 09:29
ORD said:
That sounds worrying like a system and a plan! Football is not done that way. It’s still mostly run in a throughly amateur way and by second-rate people (at best).
Look at the managers, FFS: many of them are thick as bricks.
Managers yes but football is business these days (and what happens on the pitch is a part of that but not the whole given TV and sponsorships) so surely you put business people on the board who understand finance, budgets and KPI, “football knowledge an advantage rather than a must”.Look at the managers, FFS: many of them are thick as bricks.
No different to a company board bringing a new CEO with their own style
bstb3 - but without criteria none of it works, having them and sticking to them means a change of manager does not disrupt as much, the new manager had to conform to same criteria. I would argue it doesn’t take much football nous to come up with them either - I did it in 10 seconds without ever having played Football Manager
Adam B said:
bstb3 - but without criteria none of it works, having them and sticking to them means a change of manager does not disrupt as much, the new manager had to conform to same criteria. I would argue it doesn’t take much football nous to come up with them either - I did it in 10 seconds without ever having played Football Manager
totally agree the criteria is very important. I'd argue though setting a style, strategy and ensuring targets are suitable with that takes a little longer than 10 seconds 
. In any case, for a manager of any stature to work with such a structure you are going to need someone who is at least their equal in terms of experience and knowledge.I'd imagine we can at least both agree that what has been happening at Old Trafford for the last 6 years has not been working massively well, so the signs Ed and the board are willing to change are at least promising to some degree.
To be fair i said coming up with criteria doesn’t take long, the rest will of course.
I think the most positive development is the board saying no to JM and making him realise he can’t just spend his way out of a crisis, he might actually need to buy more astutely and develop what he’s got
I think the most positive development is the board saying no to JM and making him realise he can’t just spend his way out of a crisis, he might actually need to buy more astutely and develop what he’s got
jammy-git said:
There's not many top level clubs that don't operate without a DoF in some sort of form or capacity now.
United need a person who is equidistant in experience between the manager and board - someone who can work in the best interests of the club and shareholders, but understands the managers strategy and needs/requirements. I thin Woodward is just too close to the board to be able to serve Mourinho or whoever effectively.*- Notwithstanding the fact that it is probably a lot more complex how players are asked for, pursued and presented to the board/manager as viable prospects.
I think it was Lee Sharpe who said yesterday Jose was spending very little time with the players before games now. You do have to start to question what is going on - but that particular case could be due to JM delegating to his staff. Clearly we are lacking in coaching though, somewhere. That or the players just aren't arsed enough to put it into practice in games. Neither is good.
I think the issue (right now) is both coaching and recruitment policy. There just doesn't seem to be a coherent recruitment policy in place and those that have come (many of which were supposed to be young with potential) haven't kicked on and progressed or fulfilled that potential.
I think you could do with someone like Monchi from Roma.
I think you could do with someone like Monchi from Roma.
bstb3 said:
I think it was Lee Sharpe who said yesterday Jose was spending very little time with the players before games now. You do have to start to question what is going on - but that particular case could be due to JM delegating to his staff. Clearly we are lacking in coaching though, somewhere. That or the players just aren't arsed enough to put it into practice in games. Neither is good.
Could it be that he is so removed from the recruitment process that the players in front of him are, in his mind, a tool for the job and not his tools?Whatever Maureen likes to think, Woodward holds all the aces, cos he is the bloke who can sack him (or certainly instigate that procedure). Managers (head coaches) are here today, gone tomorrow now - at ANY club, not just everyone else but you because you had Sir Alex for 25 years ... they're hired, and fired (and nicely compensated).
No-one is going to build 'a dynasty' ... least of all Maureen. Those days have gone. You gave Moyes the chance to and sacked him within a season.
A DoF determines with the owners presumably, what the style of play is, and brings in a head coach who plays in that style and with him they decide what players fit that style. Then the head coach 'coaches them' more - you know, like coaches do (ie to get better at what they do).
Maureen is not that man. Woodward may not be a football man but he was right to question why you needed another 1-2 centre backs when he had already bought two already. Sell them before you buy the better ones then ... no, you can't, cos they're on such huge wages.
You're a victim of you (former) success in many ways.
No-one is going to build 'a dynasty' ... least of all Maureen. Those days have gone. You gave Moyes the chance to and sacked him within a season.
A DoF determines with the owners presumably, what the style of play is, and brings in a head coach who plays in that style and with him they decide what players fit that style. Then the head coach 'coaches them' more - you know, like coaches do (ie to get better at what they do).
Maureen is not that man. Woodward may not be a football man but he was right to question why you needed another 1-2 centre backs when he had already bought two already. Sell them before you buy the better ones then ... no, you can't, cos they're on such huge wages.
You're a victim of you (former) success in many ways.
It was never going to be easy transitioning from the most successful team in moden British football after a 20+ yr dynasty to becoming another "new manager please" production line like the rest. Unfortunately as with Wenger and Arsenal those days are gone. Chelsea proved other ways work to a limited extent despite the constant upheavals.
City have unlimited funds and one of if not the top man in football at present but if he wins the champions league (If) will he stay and try to build a long dynasty or will he seek a new challenge perhaps?
Football is certainly changed because of the money floating around. I'm just thankful there is a solid business behind UTD and a long term future for the club regardless.
City have unlimited funds and one of if not the top man in football at present but if he wins the champions league (If) will he stay and try to build a long dynasty or will he seek a new challenge perhaps?
Football is certainly changed because of the money floating around. I'm just thankful there is a solid business behind UTD and a long term future for the club regardless.
bstb3 said:
I think it was Lee Sharpe who said yesterday Jose was spending very little time with the players before games now. You do have to start to question what is going on - but that particular case could be due to JM delegating to his staff. Clearly we are lacking in coaching though, somewhere. That or the players just aren't arsed enough to put it into practice in games. Neither is good.
Hows he going to know anything? He was kicked out of United 20years ago and has zero connection to current players or staff at Carrington. He’ll just be skint amd want £500 as a rent a gob for whichever paper wants to print something else about us. Gavia said:
Hows he going to know anything? He was kicked out of United 20years ago and has zero connection to current players or staff at Carrington. He’ll just be skint amd want £500 as a rent a gob for whichever paper wants to print something else about us.
He was probably pissed at not being selected for Love Island and needed cash lol. Gassing Station | Football | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff