The Official Scottish Football Thread
Discussion
scoopdydoo said:
Driver101 said:
Big Ooft! Strong article for sure. Good to see it finally being talked about in such strong terms, beginning to fell like a bit of a watershed moment. 
The Protestant superiority complex is still ingrained in Scottish culture and is always bubbling under the surface
Tbh I’ve been surprised at the reaction of most of the press, usually it’s a case of tut tut, very small minority, let’s call,it sectarian because well you know they’re both bad as each other and let’s sweep sweep
However I do genuinely feel sorry for the decent Rangers fans (got a few mates who are) but how you could go to George Square on Saturday and witness that and not start to ponder where your club and support is going…..
Driver101 said:
Tommy Sheridan (yes, I know, bear with me…) posted an interesting no-holds barred Tweet too:“There are many more important issues in Scotland and across our world but I am increasingly exasperated by the verbal diarrhea I read and hear from cowardly and ignorant pundits and so-called journalists about the apparent equivalence between the behaviour of Celtic fans and Rangers fans. I'm not having it. There is no such equivalence and until the truth is called out progress will be impossible. One club was built with an inclusive charitable purpose opposed to discrimination. The other on triumphant bigotry and discrimination which feeds the hatred which fills the stands during every Rangers game. Here is my response to a post on my feed which suggested each set of fans is as bad as the other:
I'm sorry guys but sometimes the truth hurts. One club was formed with a charitable purpose to feed the poor immigrants and inhabitants of Glasgow's East End regardless of religion, colour or creed. That is the DNA of Celtic Football Club. Some fans forget those roots and values when addressing the situation facing the refugees and immigrants of today but real fans who know their history will remember we from Irish stock, many compelled to come to Scotland due to a British caused famine, were once those refugees and immigrants and were discriminated against due to our heritage and religion. The other club in question was founded on Protestant triumphalism from day one and throughout my childhood refused to sign a Catholic player in a blatant policy of discrimination that fed into the terrace hatred that was accomodated and tolerated for years and still exists within the DNA of that club. The weekly boast about being up to their knees in fenian blood is not banned, condemned or eradicated by the club because their anti-Irish and anti-Catholic hatred is in their DNA. When that club condemns the overt and covert anti-Irish bile and anti-Catholic tirades, much of it visited on my home by squads of cowards draped in butcher's aprons for hours yesterday, then I will take their anti-racism statements seriously. So do Celtic have some fans that are bams and shame the club? Yes. Is the extent of the problem similar to Rangers? Absolutely not. The culture of anti-Irish and anti-Catholic hatred is a sad and regular feature of Ibrox games and their support base. To deny it is to deny reality. The Rangers were the best team this season and won the league deservedly. But nothing, absolutely nothing, justifies the constant and unchallenged anti-Irish and anti-Catholic bile that is spewed by so many fans. Discrimination in all and any form should be condemened from all quarters. Cheers guys.”
Strocky said:
scoopdydoo said:
Driver101 said:
Big Ooft! Strong article for sure. Good to see it finally being talked about in such strong terms, beginning to fell like a bit of a watershed moment. The Protestant superiority complex is still ingrained in Scottish culture and is always bubbling under the surface
Tbh I’ve been surprised at the reaction of most of the press, usually it’s a case of tut tut, very small minority, let’s call,it sectarian because well you know they’re both bad as each other and let’s sweep sweep
However I do genuinely feel sorry for the decent Rangers fans (got a few mates who are) but how you could go to George Square on Saturday and witness that and not start to ponder where your club and support is going…..
Edinburger said:
Tommy Sheridan (yes, I know, bear with me…) posted an interesting no-holds barred Tweet too:
“There are many more important issues in Scotland and across our world but I am increasingly exasperated by the verbal diarrhea I read and hear from cowardly and ignorant pundits and so-called journalists about the apparent equivalence between the behaviour of Celtic fans and Rangers fans. I'm not having it. There is no such equivalence and until the truth is called out progress will be impossible. One club was built with an inclusive charitable purpose opposed to discrimination. The other on triumphant bigotry and discrimination which feeds the hatred which fills the stands during every Rangers game. Here is my response to a post on my feed which suggested each set of fans is as bad as the other:
I'm sorry guys but sometimes the truth hurts. One club was formed with a charitable purpose to feed the poor immigrants and inhabitants of Glasgow's East End regardless of religion, colour or creed. That is the DNA of Celtic Football Club. Some fans forget those roots and values when addressing the situation facing the refugees and immigrants of today but real fans who know their history will remember we from Irish stock, many compelled to come to Scotland due to a British caused famine, were once those refugees and immigrants and were discriminated against due to our heritage and religion. The other club in question was founded on Protestant triumphalism from day one and throughout my childhood refused to sign a Catholic player in a blatant policy of discrimination that fed into the terrace hatred that was accomodated and tolerated for years and still exists within the DNA of that club. The weekly boast about being up to their knees in fenian blood is not banned, condemned or eradicated by the club because their anti-Irish and anti-Catholic hatred is in their DNA. When that club condemns the overt and covert anti-Irish bile and anti-Catholic tirades, much of it visited on my home by squads of cowards draped in butcher's aprons for hours yesterday, then I will take their anti-racism statements seriously. So do Celtic have some fans that are bams and shame the club? Yes. Is the extent of the problem similar to Rangers? Absolutely not. The culture of anti-Irish and anti-Catholic hatred is a sad and regular feature of Ibrox games and their support base. To deny it is to deny reality. The Rangers were the best team this season and won the league deservedly. But nothing, absolutely nothing, justifies the constant and unchallenged anti-Irish and anti-Catholic bile that is spewed by so many fans. Discrimination in all and any form should be condemened from all quarters. Cheers guys.”
Didn't you post this yesterday, and then delete it?“There are many more important issues in Scotland and across our world but I am increasingly exasperated by the verbal diarrhea I read and hear from cowardly and ignorant pundits and so-called journalists about the apparent equivalence between the behaviour of Celtic fans and Rangers fans. I'm not having it. There is no such equivalence and until the truth is called out progress will be impossible. One club was built with an inclusive charitable purpose opposed to discrimination. The other on triumphant bigotry and discrimination which feeds the hatred which fills the stands during every Rangers game. Here is my response to a post on my feed which suggested each set of fans is as bad as the other:
I'm sorry guys but sometimes the truth hurts. One club was formed with a charitable purpose to feed the poor immigrants and inhabitants of Glasgow's East End regardless of religion, colour or creed. That is the DNA of Celtic Football Club. Some fans forget those roots and values when addressing the situation facing the refugees and immigrants of today but real fans who know their history will remember we from Irish stock, many compelled to come to Scotland due to a British caused famine, were once those refugees and immigrants and were discriminated against due to our heritage and religion. The other club in question was founded on Protestant triumphalism from day one and throughout my childhood refused to sign a Catholic player in a blatant policy of discrimination that fed into the terrace hatred that was accomodated and tolerated for years and still exists within the DNA of that club. The weekly boast about being up to their knees in fenian blood is not banned, condemned or eradicated by the club because their anti-Irish and anti-Catholic hatred is in their DNA. When that club condemns the overt and covert anti-Irish bile and anti-Catholic tirades, much of it visited on my home by squads of cowards draped in butcher's aprons for hours yesterday, then I will take their anti-racism statements seriously. So do Celtic have some fans that are bams and shame the club? Yes. Is the extent of the problem similar to Rangers? Absolutely not. The culture of anti-Irish and anti-Catholic hatred is a sad and regular feature of Ibrox games and their support base. To deny it is to deny reality. The Rangers were the best team this season and won the league deservedly. But nothing, absolutely nothing, justifies the constant and unchallenged anti-Irish and anti-Catholic bile that is spewed by so many fans. Discrimination in all and any form should be condemened from all quarters. Cheers guys.”
thewarlock said:
Edinburger said:
Tommy Sheridan (yes, I know, bear with me…) posted an interesting no-holds barred Tweet too:
“There are many more important issues in Scotland and across our world but I am increasingly exasperated by the verbal diarrhea I read and hear from cowardly and ignorant pundits and so-called journalists about the apparent equivalence between the behaviour of Celtic fans and Rangers fans. I'm not having it. There is no such equivalence and until the truth is called out progress will be impossible. One club was built with an inclusive charitable purpose opposed to discrimination. The other on triumphant bigotry and discrimination which feeds the hatred which fills the stands during every Rangers game. Here is my response to a post on my feed which suggested each set of fans is as bad as the other:
I'm sorry guys but sometimes the truth hurts. One club was formed with a charitable purpose to feed the poor immigrants and inhabitants of Glasgow's East End regardless of religion, colour or creed. That is the DNA of Celtic Football Club. Some fans forget those roots and values when addressing the situation facing the refugees and immigrants of today but real fans who know their history will remember we from Irish stock, many compelled to come to Scotland due to a British caused famine, were once those refugees and immigrants and were discriminated against due to our heritage and religion. The other club in question was founded on Protestant triumphalism from day one and throughout my childhood refused to sign a Catholic player in a blatant policy of discrimination that fed into the terrace hatred that was accomodated and tolerated for years and still exists within the DNA of that club. The weekly boast about being up to their knees in fenian blood is not banned, condemned or eradicated by the club because their anti-Irish and anti-Catholic hatred is in their DNA. When that club condemns the overt and covert anti-Irish bile and anti-Catholic tirades, much of it visited on my home by squads of cowards draped in butcher's aprons for hours yesterday, then I will take their anti-racism statements seriously. So do Celtic have some fans that are bams and shame the club? Yes. Is the extent of the problem similar to Rangers? Absolutely not. The culture of anti-Irish and anti-Catholic hatred is a sad and regular feature of Ibrox games and their support base. To deny it is to deny reality. The Rangers were the best team this season and won the league deservedly. But nothing, absolutely nothing, justifies the constant and unchallenged anti-Irish and anti-Catholic bile that is spewed by so many fans. Discrimination in all and any form should be condemened from all quarters. Cheers guys.”
Didn't you post this yesterday, and then delete it?“There are many more important issues in Scotland and across our world but I am increasingly exasperated by the verbal diarrhea I read and hear from cowardly and ignorant pundits and so-called journalists about the apparent equivalence between the behaviour of Celtic fans and Rangers fans. I'm not having it. There is no such equivalence and until the truth is called out progress will be impossible. One club was built with an inclusive charitable purpose opposed to discrimination. The other on triumphant bigotry and discrimination which feeds the hatred which fills the stands during every Rangers game. Here is my response to a post on my feed which suggested each set of fans is as bad as the other:
I'm sorry guys but sometimes the truth hurts. One club was formed with a charitable purpose to feed the poor immigrants and inhabitants of Glasgow's East End regardless of religion, colour or creed. That is the DNA of Celtic Football Club. Some fans forget those roots and values when addressing the situation facing the refugees and immigrants of today but real fans who know their history will remember we from Irish stock, many compelled to come to Scotland due to a British caused famine, were once those refugees and immigrants and were discriminated against due to our heritage and religion. The other club in question was founded on Protestant triumphalism from day one and throughout my childhood refused to sign a Catholic player in a blatant policy of discrimination that fed into the terrace hatred that was accomodated and tolerated for years and still exists within the DNA of that club. The weekly boast about being up to their knees in fenian blood is not banned, condemned or eradicated by the club because their anti-Irish and anti-Catholic hatred is in their DNA. When that club condemns the overt and covert anti-Irish bile and anti-Catholic tirades, much of it visited on my home by squads of cowards draped in butcher's aprons for hours yesterday, then I will take their anti-racism statements seriously. So do Celtic have some fans that are bams and shame the club? Yes. Is the extent of the problem similar to Rangers? Absolutely not. The culture of anti-Irish and anti-Catholic hatred is a sad and regular feature of Ibrox games and their support base. To deny it is to deny reality. The Rangers were the best team this season and won the league deservedly. But nothing, absolutely nothing, justifies the constant and unchallenged anti-Irish and anti-Catholic bile that is spewed by so many fans. Discrimination in all and any form should be condemened from all quarters. Cheers guys.”
I included it in my response to simoid but decided it was OTT and deleted it. But since the uproar on the video and did they / didn’t they, it’s an alternative view worth sharing.
DocJock said:
What a bunch of divisive tripe. Does absolutely nothing to help.
What would help?TBF one of my celtic pals said so what if they said FTP what sanction would suffice?
For me taking players or fans (of either club) that display derogatroy behaviour to see the victims of sectarian violence and the impact on their lives going forward. Words matter especially when in extreme cases it then leads to direct violence and sometimes life altering consequences
It would also help if the Morningside punters stopped saying it was only a West of Scotland issue whilst they indulge in casual racism/sectarianism down the golf club/bridge club
Strocky said:
DocJock said:
What a bunch of divisive tripe. Does absolutely nothing to help.
What would help?For a start, universal condemnation. None of this "They do it much more than us", "What about what you lot did in 1953 (other dates are available) whatabouttery crap.
TBF one of my celtic pals said so what if they said FTP what sanction would suffice?
For me taking players or fans (of either club) that display derogatroy behaviour to see the victims of sectarian violence and the impact on their lives going forward. Words matter especially when in extreme cases it then leads to direct violence and sometimes life altering consequences
I agree 100% with that.
It would also help if the Morningside punters stopped saying it was only a West of Scotland issue whilst they indulge in casual racism/sectarianism down the golf club/bridge club
Again, I agree. Having lived in both Glasgow and Edinburgh though, the sectarianism was more overtly prevalent in the west. These days I can't say with any certainty becuase i've been down south for a while.
Edited by DocJock on Tuesday 18th May 09:57
Strocky said:
DocJock said:
What a bunch of divisive tripe. Does absolutely nothing to help.
What would help?TBF one of my celtic pals said so what if they said FTP what sanction would suffice?
For me taking players or fans (of either club) that display derogatroy behaviour to see the victims of sectarian violence and the impact on their lives going forward. Words matter especially when in extreme cases it then leads to direct violence and sometimes life altering consequences
It would also help if the Morningside punters stopped saying it was only a West of Scotland issue whilst they indulge in casual racism/sectarianism down the golf club/bridge club
However, I would bet good money that 98%+ of sectarian issues today relate to Rangers/Celtic - bearing in mind they have fans all over Scotland. They are West of Scotland clubs and a big proportion of their fans are from the West of Scotland though.
I'm sure you know the historical reasons behind that.
There's plenty non-football and society changes we could make to help weed out this cancer e.g. stop sending Catholic kids to Catholic schools. I do a lot of work in Northern Ireland and they are way ahead of us in that regard.
Edinburger said:
Tommy Sheridan (yes, I know, bear with me…) posted an interesting no-holds barred Tweet too:
“There are many more important issues in Scotland and across our world but I am increasingly exasperated by the verbal diarrhea I read and hear from cowardly and ignorant pundits and so-called journalists about the apparent equivalence between the behaviour of Celtic fans and Rangers fans. I'm not having it. There is no such equivalence and until the truth is called out progress will be impossible. One club was built with an inclusive charitable purpose opposed to discrimination. The other on triumphant bigotry and discrimination which feeds the hatred which fills the stands during every Rangers game. Here is my response to a post on my feed which suggested each set of fans is as bad as the other:
I'm sorry guys but sometimes the truth hurts. One club was formed with a charitable purpose to feed the poor immigrants and inhabitants of Glasgow's East End regardless of religion, colour or creed. That is the DNA of Celtic Football Club. Some fans forget those roots and values when addressing the situation facing the refugees and immigrants of today but real fans who know their history will remember we from Irish stock, many compelled to come to Scotland due to a British caused famine, were once those refugees and immigrants and were discriminated against due to our heritage and religion. The other club in question was founded on Protestant triumphalism from day one and throughout my childhood refused to sign a Catholic player in a blatant policy of discrimination that fed into the terrace hatred that was accomodated and tolerated for years and still exists within the DNA of that club. The weekly boast about being up to their knees in fenian blood is not banned, condemned or eradicated by the club because their anti-Irish and anti-Catholic hatred is in their DNA. When that club condemns the overt and covert anti-Irish bile and anti-Catholic tirades, much of it visited on my home by squads of cowards draped in butcher's aprons for hours yesterday, then I will take their anti-racism statements seriously. So do Celtic have some fans that are bams and shame the club? Yes. Is the extent of the problem similar to Rangers? Absolutely not. The culture of anti-Irish and anti-Catholic hatred is a sad and regular feature of Ibrox games and their support base. To deny it is to deny reality. The Rangers were the best team this season and won the league deservedly. But nothing, absolutely nothing, justifies the constant and unchallenged anti-Irish and anti-Catholic bile that is spewed by so many fans. Discrimination in all and any form should be condemened from all quarters. Cheers guys.”
That is comical pish and it’s no wonder Sheridan is a joke figure now“There are many more important issues in Scotland and across our world but I am increasingly exasperated by the verbal diarrhea I read and hear from cowardly and ignorant pundits and so-called journalists about the apparent equivalence between the behaviour of Celtic fans and Rangers fans. I'm not having it. There is no such equivalence and until the truth is called out progress will be impossible. One club was built with an inclusive charitable purpose opposed to discrimination. The other on triumphant bigotry and discrimination which feeds the hatred which fills the stands during every Rangers game. Here is my response to a post on my feed which suggested each set of fans is as bad as the other:
I'm sorry guys but sometimes the truth hurts. One club was formed with a charitable purpose to feed the poor immigrants and inhabitants of Glasgow's East End regardless of religion, colour or creed. That is the DNA of Celtic Football Club. Some fans forget those roots and values when addressing the situation facing the refugees and immigrants of today but real fans who know their history will remember we from Irish stock, many compelled to come to Scotland due to a British caused famine, were once those refugees and immigrants and were discriminated against due to our heritage and religion. The other club in question was founded on Protestant triumphalism from day one and throughout my childhood refused to sign a Catholic player in a blatant policy of discrimination that fed into the terrace hatred that was accomodated and tolerated for years and still exists within the DNA of that club. The weekly boast about being up to their knees in fenian blood is not banned, condemned or eradicated by the club because their anti-Irish and anti-Catholic hatred is in their DNA. When that club condemns the overt and covert anti-Irish bile and anti-Catholic tirades, much of it visited on my home by squads of cowards draped in butcher's aprons for hours yesterday, then I will take their anti-racism statements seriously. So do Celtic have some fans that are bams and shame the club? Yes. Is the extent of the problem similar to Rangers? Absolutely not. The culture of anti-Irish and anti-Catholic hatred is a sad and regular feature of Ibrox games and their support base. To deny it is to deny reality. The Rangers were the best team this season and won the league deservedly. But nothing, absolutely nothing, justifies the constant and unchallenged anti-Irish and anti-Catholic bile that is spewed by so many fans. Discrimination in all and any form should be condemened from all quarters. Cheers guys.”
Edinburger said:
There's plenty non-football and society changes we could make to help weed out this cancer e.g. stop sending Catholic kids to Catholic schools. I do a lot of work in Northern Ireland and they are way ahead of us in that regard.
It's not Catholic schools that are the problem here, not that I'm a fan of religious based schools. We don't have schools segregated based on colour, yet we still have racism.
Sectarianism and racism are taught at home.
Terzo123 said:
Edinburger said:
There's plenty non-football and society changes we could make to help weed out this cancer e.g. stop sending Catholic kids to Catholic schools. I do a lot of work in Northern Ireland and they are way ahead of us in that regard.
It's not Catholic schools that are the problem here, not that I'm a fan of religious based schools. We don't have schools segregated based on colour, yet we still have racism.
Sectarianism and racism are taught at home.
Wee Jimmy and Jonny who are best pals who live in the same street and play together at the weekend... and then are sent to separate schools because their parents believe in different flavours of sky fairies. That doesn't help. I went to a non-denominational school and had plenty mates who went to a RC school. It's crazy we're doing this.
Edinburger said:
Are you including me as a "Morningside punter"? It's not just a West of Scotland issue. Look at Hibs/Hearts, Dundee/Dundee United, etc.
No at all but it's more widespread in certain jobs i.e. lawyers, media etc. It's actually more insidous as it's done behind closed doors
However, I would bet good money that 98%+ of sectarian issues today relate to Rangers/Celtic - bearing in mind they have fans all over Scotland. They are West of Scotland clubs and a big proportion of their fans are from the West of Scotland though.
I'm sure you know the historical reasons behind that.
I'd argue that your maths is out, however overtly it would appear to mainly be a WOS issue (if you ignore Tyncastle)
There's plenty non-football and society changes we could make to help weed out this cancer e.g. stop sending Catholic kids to Catholic schools. I do a lot of work in Northern Ireland and they are way ahead of us in that regard.
[i] Hate is taught in the home not in Scottish education on either side of the divide, so your suggestion would appear to be sending Catholic kids to mixed schools (that tend to underperform educationally) and hope that they or their ir fellow school pupils don't have bigoted parents/wider family and that magically they'll all get on and not be othered by either side?
Happy to hear some examples of what they're doing in NI re schooling I don't think closing down one community's schooling is what's happening there [/i]
See above (I forgot how merde the formatting is on here)No at all but it's more widespread in certain jobs i.e. lawyers, media etc. It's actually more insidous as it's done behind closed doors
However, I would bet good money that 98%+ of sectarian issues today relate to Rangers/Celtic - bearing in mind they have fans all over Scotland. They are West of Scotland clubs and a big proportion of their fans are from the West of Scotland though.
I'm sure you know the historical reasons behind that.
I'd argue that your maths is out, however overtly it would appear to mainly be a WOS issue (if you ignore Tyncastle)
There's plenty non-football and society changes we could make to help weed out this cancer e.g. stop sending Catholic kids to Catholic schools. I do a lot of work in Northern Ireland and they are way ahead of us in that regard.
[i] Hate is taught in the home not in Scottish education on either side of the divide, so your suggestion would appear to be sending Catholic kids to mixed schools (that tend to underperform educationally) and hope that they or their ir fellow school pupils don't have bigoted parents/wider family and that magically they'll all get on and not be othered by either side?
Happy to hear some examples of what they're doing in NI re schooling I don't think closing down one community's schooling is what's happening there [/i]
Terzo123 said:
It's not Catholic schools that are the problem here, not that I'm a fan of religious based schools.
We don't have schools segregated based on colour, yet we still have racism.
Sectarianism and racism are taught at home.
I think that may be a simplistic view. It’s surely a combination of all of a person’s upbringing? Family, friends, media, society, education structure, etc etcWe don't have schools segregated based on colour, yet we still have racism.
Sectarianism and racism are taught at home.
We still have racism despite combined schooling, but do you think segregating children by colour would help? Of course it wouldn’t.
By the time I was 4 or 5 years old I knew the kids at “the catholic school” were in some way different to me. Education structure is highlighting differences before kids even know anything about why.
simoid said:
I think that may be a simplistic view. It’s surely a combination of all of a person’s upbringing? Family, friends, media, society, education structure, etc etc
We still have racism despite combined schooling, but do you think segregating children by colour would help? Of course it wouldn’t.
By the time I was 4 or 5 years old I knew the kids at “the catholic school” were in some way different to me. Education structure is highlighting differences before kids even know anything about why.
They pick up the labels of DFB or DOB from their family/peers, not from the school teachersWe still have racism despite combined schooling, but do you think segregating children by colour would help? Of course it wouldn’t.
By the time I was 4 or 5 years old I knew the kids at “the catholic school” were in some way different to me. Education structure is highlighting differences before kids even know anything about why.
They also get songs of hate handed down from generation to generation, again the school teachers don't hand out sing sheets
Having seperate schooling only sparks the question from kids, why?
When they get the answer "well they're different because...." or "we're better because....", does the responsibilty then not rest with the parents?
DocJock said:
If the kids were taught in non-denominational schools they'd get the chance to see for themselves that the 'other' kids are no different to them and that their bigoted parents are talking pish.
I'm all for no religion whatsoever in schools.
A laudable aim and a long term goal I'd readily support albeit with the caveat that there should be provision for the child's spiritual needs on campus dependent on the parent's wishesI'm all for no religion whatsoever in schools.
However until society accepts there is a deep rooted issue that needs to be addressed rather than underplayed, whataboutted, ignored or stoked by politicians for political gain, then it's a pipe dream IMHO
I went to Catholic school and was taught nothing but tolerance of other views and religions. Not the problem.
Look up why we have Catholic schools in the first place and why their existence only seems to be a problem in this part of the world.
Strange the discussion has turned towards Catholicism and it's schools as causing the problem of anti-catholic or anti-irish views.
Can no one see the terrible logic and ill thought in that argument?
'If only those pesky catholics didn't have their own very successful schools, the problem would go away.'
Bile yer heid.
Look up why we have Catholic schools in the first place and why their existence only seems to be a problem in this part of the world.
Strange the discussion has turned towards Catholicism and it's schools as causing the problem of anti-catholic or anti-irish views.
Can no one see the terrible logic and ill thought in that argument?
'If only those pesky catholics didn't have their own very successful schools, the problem would go away.'
Bile yer heid.
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