The Official Scottish Football Thread
Discussion
scoopdydoo said:
I went to Catholic school and was taught nothing but tolerance of other views and religions. Not the problem.
Look up why we have Catholic schools in the first place and why their existence only seems to be a problem in this part of the world.
Strange the discussion has turned towards Catholicism and it's schools as causing the problem of anti-catholic or anti-irish views.
Can no one see the terrible logic and ill thought in that argument?
'If only those pesky catholics didn't have their own very successful schools, the problem would go away.'
Bile yer heid.
My kids go to non-denominational state schools and are taught about all different religions and understanding of those. Look up why we have Catholic schools in the first place and why their existence only seems to be a problem in this part of the world.
Strange the discussion has turned towards Catholicism and it's schools as causing the problem of anti-catholic or anti-irish views.
Can no one see the terrible logic and ill thought in that argument?
'If only those pesky catholics didn't have their own very successful schools, the problem would go away.'
Bile yer heid.
The issue was raised by me. We live in a country with deep-rooted sectarian issues and hopefully in our lifetime the dinosaurs who practice this will die out and the younger people will not carry on those issues. You can but hope.
scoopdydoo said:
I went to Catholic school and was taught nothing but tolerance of other views and religions. Not the problem.
Look up why we have Catholic schools in the first place and why their existence only seems to be a problem in this part of the world.
Strange the discussion has turned towards Catholicism and it's schools as causing the problem of anti-catholic or anti-irish views.
Can no one see the terrible logic and ill thought in that argument?
'If only those pesky catholics didn't have their own very successful schools, the problem would go away.'
Bile yer heid.
I don’t think anyone has suggested that anything occurring in catholic schools is causing a problem. I believe you’re in danger of biling a straw man’s head...Look up why we have Catholic schools in the first place and why their existence only seems to be a problem in this part of the world.
Strange the discussion has turned towards Catholicism and it's schools as causing the problem of anti-catholic or anti-irish views.
Can no one see the terrible logic and ill thought in that argument?
'If only those pesky catholics didn't have their own very successful schools, the problem would go away.'
Bile yer heid.
Would you be in favour of other public services being separated by the state for catholics?
simoid said:
I don’t think anyone has suggested that anything occurring in catholic schools is causing a problem. I believe you’re in danger of biling a straw man’s head...
Would you be in favour of other public services being separated by the state for catholics?
What has that got to do with what happened on Saturday and just a few weeks ago?Would you be in favour of other public services being separated by the state for catholics?
There are Jewish schools, Muslim schools, lots of other types of religious schools. Personally I would do away with religious based schools, however they are not the cause of what happened on Saturday.
It's just another deflection tactic, another excuse.
Terzo123 said:
What has that got to do with what happened on Saturday and just a few weeks ago?
There are Jewish schools, Muslim schools, lots of other types of religious schools. Personally I would do away with religious based schools, however they are not the cause of what happened on Saturday.
It's just another deflection tactic, another excuse.
Of all the questionable mental gymnastics I’ve seen (and posted) on here, Hibs fans discussing segregated schooling to keep the heat off Rangers might be taking the biscuit There are Jewish schools, Muslim schools, lots of other types of religious schools. Personally I would do away with religious based schools, however they are not the cause of what happened on Saturday.
It's just another deflection tactic, another excuse.
There was an offensive sectarian element on Saturday and if splitting up kids isn’t part of the solution, then it’s a (not the) cause of the problems.
Edited by simoid on Tuesday 18th May 13:29
Edinburger said:
My kids go to non-denominational state schools and are taught about all different religions and understanding of those.
The issue was raised by me. We live in a country with deep-rooted sectarian issues and hopefully in our lifetime the dinosaurs who practice this will die out and the younger people will not carry on those issues. You can but hope.
Isn't 'non-denominational' just another term for a state school connected to the Church of Scotland and thus in itself a religious based school?The issue was raised by me. We live in a country with deep-rooted sectarian issues and hopefully in our lifetime the dinosaurs who practice this will die out and the younger people will not carry on those issues. You can but hope.
Do they have a Nativity Play at Christmas? Do they celebrate Easter? Parents can opt out of religious ceremonies in church of scotland schools the same way they can in a Catholic School.
The Catholic schools in my area are full of kids of all and no religion at all. There are values taught in these schools that the parents (whether christian, muslim, jewish, hindu, atheist) and society clearly place highly. The fact they are academically high performing schools is also reflected in the house prices in the area.
If they aren't of the stated religion they don't participate in the religious studies and sacramental processes the catholic children do. The rest of the time they receive their normal education.
People appear to have this idea of Catholic schools as vastly different to state (church of scotland) schools, when they're not really.
simoid said:
Of all the questionable mental gymnastics I’ve seen (and posted) on here, Hibs fans discussing segregated schooling to keep the heat off Rangers might be taking the biscuit
There was an offensive sectarian element on Saturday and if splitting up kids isn’t part of the solution, then it’s a (not the) cause of the problems.
I think deflection tactic is maybe the wrong choice of words but I can see the point trying to be made.There was an offensive sectarian element on Saturday and if splitting up kids isn’t part of the solution, then it’s a (not the) cause of the problems.
The fact that schooling is even being discussed shows how ingrained the problem is. And those who wish to point the finger at easy places say it's the catholic schools fault. Baffling.
No one is taught to hate anyone at any school. It is taught and learned in the homes.
Edinburger said:
So, it's the Scottish Cup final on Saturday!!
I get that no one wants to talk about it! Hibs have announced a partnership with Brighton & Hove Albion which looks promising. Also have a friendly with Arsenal at Easter Road in July.
I too, am looking forward to it. Although not as much as I would be if Hampden was going to be full of fans for sure.I get that no one wants to talk about it! Hibs have announced a partnership with Brighton & Hove Albion which looks promising. Also have a friendly with Arsenal at Easter Road in July.
Charlie Nicolas for once hits the nail on the head when he calls out rangers for trying to deflect by saying over and over again that’s it’s a small minority.
Charlie said there was thousands of rangers supporters totally out of control on Saturday and going by what my daughter’s boyfriend told me and what I saw on social media I would agree.
Charlie said there was thousands of rangers supporters totally out of control on Saturday and going by what my daughter’s boyfriend told me and what I saw on social media I would agree.
Anonymous-poster said:
Charlie Nicolas for once hits the nail on the head when he calls out rangers for trying to deflect by saying over and over again that’s it’s a small minority.
Charlie said there was thousands of rangers supporters totally out of control on Saturday and going by what my daughter’s boyfriend told me and what I saw on social media I would agree.
Blame the schools for their maths as well. Charlie said there was thousands of rangers supporters totally out of control on Saturday and going by what my daughter’s boyfriend told me and what I saw on social media I would agree.
scoopdydoo said:
Edinburger said:
My kids go to non-denominational state schools and are taught about all different religions and understanding of those.
The issue was raised by me. We live in a country with deep-rooted sectarian issues and hopefully in our lifetime the dinosaurs who practice this will die out and the younger people will not carry on those issues. You can but hope.
Isn't 'non-denominational' just another term for a state school connected to the Church of Scotland and thus in itself a religious based school?The issue was raised by me. We live in a country with deep-rooted sectarian issues and hopefully in our lifetime the dinosaurs who practice this will die out and the younger people will not carry on those issues. You can but hope.
Do they have a Nativity Play at Christmas? Do they celebrate Easter? Parents can opt out of religious ceremonies in church of scotland schools the same way they can in a Catholic School.
The Catholic schools in my area are full of kids of all and no religion at all. There are values taught in these schools that the parents (whether christian, muslim, jewish, hindu, atheist) and society clearly place highly. The fact they are academically high performing schools is also reflected in the house prices in the area.
If they aren't of the stated religion they don't participate in the religious studies and sacramental processes the catholic children do. The rest of the time they receive their normal education.
People appear to have this idea of Catholic schools as vastly different to state (church of scotland) schools, when they're not really.
simoid said:
Of all the questionable mental gymnastics I’ve seen (and posted) on here, Hibs fans discussing segregated schooling to keep the heat off Rangers might be taking the biscuit
There was an offensive sectarian element on Saturday and if splitting up kids isn’t part of the solution, then it’s a (not the) cause of the problems.
I think deflection tactic is maybe the wrong choice of words but I can see the point trying to be made.There was an offensive sectarian element on Saturday and if splitting up kids isn’t part of the solution, then it’s a (not the) cause of the problems.
The fact that schooling is even being discussed shows how ingrained the problem is. And those who wish to point the finger at easy places say it's the catholic schools fault. Baffling.
No one is taught to hate anyone at any school. It is taught and learned in the homes.
It is the presence of apparent segregation that is seen as the issue as I understand it. Discussing schooling isn’t a new thing in here btw, I have the feeling it crops up now and again.Mon the Saints! (Just cos they’re underdogs)
simoid said:
It’s baffling you because you are creating a straw man argument again. Nobody is saying any school teaches hate It is the presence of apparent segregation that is seen as the issue as I understand it. Discussing schooling isn’t a new thing in here btw, I have the feeling it crops up now and again.
Mon the Saints! (Just cos they’re underdogs)
I get that it's the apparent segregation that is the issue but I don't believe for a second that a father who wishes to take his son on Orange walks, and tell him about King Billy killing the Catholics and sing the countless songs we've seen this weekend, would have any less influence simply because 16% of his classmates were Catholic. Or would have stopped the fans at the weekend, many of whom will have Catholic friends. It is the presence of apparent segregation that is seen as the issue as I understand it. Discussing schooling isn’t a new thing in here btw, I have the feeling it crops up now and again.Mon the Saints! (Just cos they’re underdogs)
Great article in The Times, behind a paywall so I'll paste a bit here.
'Consider two events last weekend. In London police received reports of antisemitic hate being shouted from a convoy of cars driving through a traditionally Jewish area of north London while flying Palestinian flags. Metropolitan Police launched a citywide hunt and within hours there were arrests. Four men were charged with racially aggravated public order offences.
Meanwhile in Glasgow thousands of fans of Rangers FC marched through the city, a large number of them singing songs that glorified violence against Irish Catholics. Despite a heavy police presence I can find no report of an officer warning fans about singing such songs. Only later, when a gathering in George Square turned violent, did police move in and make arrests.
In London, race hate spurred police to action. In Glasgow, it was just another Saturday.'
It's a problem is Scotland that manifests most clearly at certain football matches. Much deeper than a 90 minute bigot.
Anyway, I don't want to go on on the football thread.
So good luck Hibs (because they play in green)
Driver101 said:
They shouldn't have allowed the large crowds to gather in the first place. We all knew what was going to happen again. The police were telling businesses in advance to stay shut for their own safety. That's completely wrong.
There was fighting, sectarianism and antisocial behaviour across the day and not just in the evening. It was never peaceful. Even thousands of fans chanting and marching is intimidating to members of the public.
If the police didn't think they could stop or control the mobs, then the doors at Ibrox should have been opened, or plans for fans to go to a park. They should have actively planned to keep fans away from the city centre.
Driver is Rangers’ chief executive AICMFP.There was fighting, sectarianism and antisocial behaviour across the day and not just in the evening. It was never peaceful. Even thousands of fans chanting and marching is intimidating to members of the public.
If the police didn't think they could stop or control the mobs, then the doors at Ibrox should have been opened, or plans for fans to go to a park. They should have actively planned to keep fans away from the city centre.
scoopdydoo said:
I get that it's the apparent segregation that is the issue but I don't believe for a second that a father who wishes to take his son on Orange walks, and tell him about King Billy killing the Catholics and sing the countless songs we've seen this weekend, would have any less influence simply because 16% of his classmates were Catholic. Or would have stopped the fans at the weekend, many of whom will have Catholic friends.
Great article in The Times, behind a paywall so I'll paste a bit here.
'Consider two events last weekend. In London police received reports of antisemitic hate being shouted from a convoy of cars driving through a traditionally Jewish area of north London while flying Palestinian flags. Metropolitan Police launched a citywide hunt and within hours there were arrests. Four men were charged with racially aggravated public order offences.
Meanwhile in Glasgow thousands of fans of Rangers FC marched through the city, a large number of them singing songs that glorified violence against Irish Catholics. Despite a heavy police presence I can find no report of an officer warning fans about singing such songs. Only later, when a gathering in George Square turned violent, did police move in and make arrests.
In London, race hate spurred police to action. In Glasgow, it was just another Saturday.'
It's a problem is Scotland that manifests most clearly at certain football matches. Much deeper than a 90 minute bigot.
Anyway, I don't want to go on on the football thread.
So good luck Hibs (because they play in green)
It’s ok I’m happy to go on. Season’s finished Great article in The Times, behind a paywall so I'll paste a bit here.
'Consider two events last weekend. In London police received reports of antisemitic hate being shouted from a convoy of cars driving through a traditionally Jewish area of north London while flying Palestinian flags. Metropolitan Police launched a citywide hunt and within hours there were arrests. Four men were charged with racially aggravated public order offences.
Meanwhile in Glasgow thousands of fans of Rangers FC marched through the city, a large number of them singing songs that glorified violence against Irish Catholics. Despite a heavy police presence I can find no report of an officer warning fans about singing such songs. Only later, when a gathering in George Square turned violent, did police move in and make arrests.
In London, race hate spurred police to action. In Glasgow, it was just another Saturday.'
It's a problem is Scotland that manifests most clearly at certain football matches. Much deeper than a 90 minute bigot.
Anyway, I don't want to go on on the football thread.
So good luck Hibs (because they play in green)
I suppose we could consider breaking the “father to son to grandson” cycle. A child might learn bigotry at home (really?) but hopefully they grow up meeting lots of different religions/cultures/nationalities/colours and so the environment shows them that their bigot dad is an idiot. Or we could separate the Catholic schools and lessen the contact between different religions and perpetuate the cycle...?
Re the policing, I’m certainly not an expert but I realise it’s easy to bash police. We’ve said before that if a large crowd want to do something, the police are probably going to let them. 10k marching Rangers fans and a relatively tiny number of police, do you really think they’re gonna start pulling people of the crowd to confront them?
The whole thing is an omnishambolic clusterf
k and it’s gonna take generations to sort out.simoid said:
Driver101 said:
They shouldn't have allowed the large crowds to gather in the first place. We all knew what was going to happen again. The police were telling businesses in advance to stay shut for their own safety. That's completely wrong.
There was fighting, sectarianism and antisocial behaviour across the day and not just in the evening. It was never peaceful. Even thousands of fans chanting and marching is intimidating to members of the public.
If the police didn't think they could stop or control the mobs, then the doors at Ibrox should have been opened, or plans for fans to go to a park. They should have actively planned to keep fans away from the city centre.
Driver is Rangers’ chief executive AICMFP.There was fighting, sectarianism and antisocial behaviour across the day and not just in the evening. It was never peaceful. Even thousands of fans chanting and marching is intimidating to members of the public.
If the police didn't think they could stop or control the mobs, then the doors at Ibrox should have been opened, or plans for fans to go to a park. They should have actively planned to keep fans away from the city centre.
The arrogance of that letter is astounding. I am struggling to understand if it's genuine, and if it's was, why would that be put out?
The big difference is indeed that Rangers were offering prevention, and you offered cure.
Which is better?
The authorities’ course of action now affords Rangers and their supporters a “told you so”, although it’s understandable that the request was rejected as it would not have been popular with the government’s electors. Allowing a title party was lose:lose for the government - if it goes without a hitch then everyone complains that Rangers fans have special treatment; if it kicks off then the government get blamed for allowing it. I can absolutely see why they chose not to touch it with a barge pole.
Which is better?
The authorities’ course of action now affords Rangers and their supporters a “told you so”, although it’s understandable that the request was rejected as it would not have been popular with the government’s electors. Allowing a title party was lose:lose for the government - if it goes without a hitch then everyone complains that Rangers fans have special treatment; if it kicks off then the government get blamed for allowing it. I can absolutely see why they chose not to touch it with a barge pole.
simoid said:
The big difference is indeed that Rangers were offering prevention, and you offered cure.
Which is better?
The authorities’ course of action now affords Rangers and their supporters a “told you so”, although it’s understandable that the request was rejected as it would not have been popular with the government’s electors. Allowing a title party was lose:lose for the government - if it goes without a hitch then everyone complains that Rangers fans have special treatment; if it kicks off then the government get blamed for allowing it. I can absolutely see why they chose not to touch it with a barge pole.
Prevention? Which is better?
The authorities’ course of action now affords Rangers and their supporters a “told you so”, although it’s understandable that the request was rejected as it would not have been popular with the government’s electors. Allowing a title party was lose:lose for the government - if it goes without a hitch then everyone complains that Rangers fans have special treatment; if it kicks off then the government get blamed for allowing it. I can absolutely see why they chose not to touch it with a barge pole.
Nothing excuses the behaviour of Saturday. Absolutely nothing.
In no way whatsoever does the authorities adhering the restrictions of the rest of the country has had to conform to give Rangers and Rangers fans the ability to say "told you so".
Your post is staggeringly arrogant and ignorant.
Edited by Driver101 on Tuesday 18th May 21:56
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