The Official Liverpool FC Thread [Vol 12]

[700BHP]

RedTrident said:

700BHP said:

RedTrident said:

No one would be complaining if Mignolet, Karius, Klavan, Lovren. Moreno, Clyne, Milner (left back) or Gomez were sold.

I strongly disagree.

They would not make any of the teams around us stronger imo.

Every one of those players (again imo) would not make the starting line up of Chelsea, Spurs, City or Utd. Probably not Arsenal either.

As for squad fillers, maybe Mignolet and Clyne.

Yet that is nearly our entire defence!

That's not what you said though. You said no-one would bat an eyelid if they were all sold.

That's patently not the case is it.

It might be your opinion, but it's unrealistic to state it as fact.

[RedTrident]

Pommygranite said:

RedTrident said:

I think that a leader at the back would move the players wherever they needed to go depending on how the opposition deployed their players. In the absence of such leaders we will continue to concede whatever happens imo. Real life is different to drills.

Though their equaliser was nothing other than an individual mistake.

The Captain doesn't position people for Zonal Marking, the Manager does - you do know that right?

The leader at the back would see the opposition make a move and take command - you do know that right?

[RedTrident]

700BHP said:

RedTrident said:

700BHP said:

RedTrident said:

No one would be complaining if Mignolet, Karius, Klavan, Lovren. Moreno, Clyne, Milner (left back) or Gomez were sold.

I strongly disagree.

They would not make any of the teams around us stronger imo.

Every one of those players (again imo) would not make the starting line up of Chelsea, Spurs, City or Utd. Probably not Arsenal either.

As for squad fillers, maybe Mignolet and Clyne.

Yet that is nearly our entire defence!

That's not what you said though. You said no-one would bat an eyelid if they were all sold.

That's patently not the case is it.

It might be your opinion, but it's unrealistic to state it as fact.

Which one of these will you cry over if we sold them? Go on, humour me.

And which team would any of these players improve?

[RedTrident]

jammy-git said:

They might not make the starting line-up, but they are all great squad players.

And that's the problem. A defence full of squad fillers at best for every other team competing for top 6, never mind top 4.

[NRS]

RedTrident said:

You could bring Rafa back and that defence wouldn't perform any better. It has a complete absence of leaders. You don't coach leadership imo. It's a character trait, its why Rafa went after captains.

The only ones from our back 5 that I'd keep in a starting 11 is Matip and Arnold to see how he develops. All the others we could improve on. No one would be complaining if Mignolet, Karius, Klavan, Lovren. Moreno, Clyne, Milner (left back) or Gomez were sold. And if we did sell any of these, I'm certain that they'd go to a lower club.

That is how bad our defence is. I'm not sure why that makes me a bumlicker, who exactly am I bumlicking?

You can't polish a turd as they say, and our defence is full of average players.

You're wrong. You even said when we signed Lovren he wouldn't play well with the defence set out like it was (Rodgers obviously). Lovren would do well in a team like United where they cover the defence with more players. A huge part of the issue is with our current team set up they're left exposed. Rafa would turn the team into a big defensive unit, cover the defenders and we'd concede a lot less goals. It'd also be generally a lot more boring to watch than Klopp or Rodgers (although obviously Rafa is still a legend and gave us many great moments)!

As I asked before, since you recommend players to buy, recommend tactics etc then you clearly feel you know what you are talking about. In a simple way can you explain the difference between Klopp's defence and Rodgers one?

There will be players that do better than some of our defenders, but the main issue is the current set up/ training. The way Klopp plays will always result in a few more goals which is fine. It's just the set pieces currently that are so frustrating.

T3LLIOTT said:

Not that I post on here a lot, I've found if anyone asks a genuine question towards RT where they are showing he's contradicted himself, they will get ignored. Personally I don't see a great deal of difference between how Klopp and Rodgers set their defense up. In normal play, both their tactics leave our CB's exposed, which is somewhat understandable when the mentality is focused on attacking. We could get VVD, but if we keep playing the open, expansive football, even he won't make much of a difference. Defending set pieces is a closed skill however and really should've been addressed over pre-season.

By the way I do think RT has 'some' good points, it's just the constant blaming FSG for everything and his posting style which gets a few peoples backs up. For example as RT has mentioned, whilst Robertson might show promise, is he really an upgrade on what we already have, or are we buying mediocre from a relegated team on the cheap to try and fill a gap? City and Arsenal have both brought in full backs which immediately strengthen their first 11. We were desperate for someone, but started Moreno at the weekend, a player which most fans want(ed) out.

I think what's most frustrating is the majority of fans saw last season as a big step towards future success, however we seem to have not capitalised on this and not addressed the same issues we had at the end of last season.

Most people would agree there is some truth in what RT says. It's just it's hidden under so much rubbish and "forgetfulness" that his points are often pretty pointless. He says players who are not doing well should be got rid of. New players he often likes and says it's a good signing if they cost a bit of money. Then if they turn into a failure he blames FSG (or the manager with Rodgers) and says we should get rid of them. Conveniently forgetting/ ignoring others showing that he wanted that player. Between his making facts fit the story and his forgetfulness about his previous comments it just becomes noise.

RedTrident said:

NRS said:

Tell me the difference between Lovren and VvD?

!

I stopped reading there. It's like thinking Lambert was a suitable replacement for Suarez. Or Ibe for Sterling. Or the promotion of Woodburn and Kelly to replace Coutinho.

Please actually explain the differences in their play when they were at Southampton? Otherwise it sounds like you thinking Moreno was a good signing, that Laser would work out well and that Balotelli was a good deal. I.e. just because they're new they must be an improvement, when that is often not the case.

[Pommygranite]

RedTrident said:

Pommygranite said:

RedTrident said:

I think that a leader at the back would move the players wherever they needed to go depending on how the opposition deployed their players. In the absence of such leaders we will continue to concede whatever happens imo. Real life is different to drills.

Though their equaliser was nothing other than an individual mistake.

The Captain doesn't position people for Zonal Marking, the Manager does - you do know that right?

The leader at the back would see the opposition make a move and take command - you do know that right?

Erm, you do know Zonal marking is based on taking a positional play? Players do not move out of their segment to follow a particular player - that's the whole point of Zonal Marking.

...and if they did move its down to Klopp to move them not the Captain.

Have you ever played football to any level of competition?

[RedTrident]

So I now need to have played football at a certain level.

Wait and see what happens when/if we bring in a better defender(s). We're not going to agree.

[Pommygranite]

RedTrident said:

So I now need to have played football at a certain level.

Wait and see what happens when/if we bring in a better defender(s). We're not going to agree.

I'm asking as you don't seem to grasp the basic rudiments of tactics yet are making sweeping comments on what is wrong and what will solve our issues. If you'd played you'd understand the roles when on the pitch and who controls what. It's quite relevant.

Jamie Carragher, even you and I would agree a fine defender and knowledgeable chap, stated it doesn't matter who comes in if Klopp doesn't solve the basic issues of the way we defend.

[RedTrident]

NRS said:

Stuff.

Rodgers was a never been who ended up in the graveyard in Scotland. Klopp would walk in to a managers job in pretty much any team in Europe. I think that explains the difference in defending.

As for my opinion on players, I liked Mario, I wanted him to succeed. Especially as we were buying crap like Lambert at the time. Remind me, where is he playing now?

Lazer would have done better imo if it wasn't for Rodgers. Just look at what Sterling had to say about him and what he nearly did with Firmino.

You have a point with Moreno, like Lovren I think he'd look decent in a team that plays to their strengths. Klopp doesn't play a system that suits them.

[RedTrident]

Pommygranite said:

RedTrident said:

So I now need to have played football at a certain level.

Wait and see what happens when/if we bring in a better defender(s). We're not going to agree.

I'm asking as you don't seem to grasp the basic rudiments of tactics yet are making sweeping comments on what is wrong and what will solve our issues. If you'd played you'd understand the roles when on the pitch and who controls what. It's quite relevant.

Jamie Carragher, even you and I would agree a fine defender and knowledgeable chap, stated it doesn't matter who comes in if Klopp doesn't solve the basic issues of the way we defend.

We'll see won't we, if we buy a new centre back.

[Pommygranite]

RedTrident said:

Pommygranite said:

RedTrident said:

So I now need to have played football at a certain level.

Wait and see what happens when/if we bring in a better defender(s). We're not going to agree.

I'm asking as you don't seem to grasp the basic rudiments of tactics yet are making sweeping comments on what is wrong and what will solve our issues. If you'd played you'd understand the roles when on the pitch and who controls what. It's quite relevant.

Jamie Carragher, even you and I would agree a fine defender and knowledgeable chap, stated it doesn't matter who comes in if Klopp doesn't solve the basic issues of the way we defend.

We'll see won't we, if we buy a new centre back.

Yes we will agreed- lets just keep an eye on the tactics also.

could have had Maldini in his heyday in our backline in Saturday and 2 of the 3 goals would still have occurred.

[NRS]

RedTrident said:

NRS said:

Stuff.

Rodgers was a never been who ended up in the graveyard in Scotland. Klopp would walk in to a managers job in pretty much any team in Europe. I think that explains the difference in defending.

As for my opinion on players, I liked Mario, I wanted him to succeed. Especially as we were buying crap like Lambert at the time. Remind me, where is he playing now?

Lazer would have done better imo if it wasn't for Rodgers. Just look at what Sterling had to say about him and what he nearly did with Firmino.

You have a point with Moreno, like Lovren I think he'd look decent in a team that plays to their strengths. Klopp doesn't play a system that suits them.

That doesn't explain any difference in tactics etc. It is purely 1 view. I'd like you to actually explain what they're doing differently?

Both were poor - it's just examples of "this person would fix things" and yet you have no idea and get it wrong as much as the rest of us (like my prediction of 5th to 7th place last season to make it fair).

Klopp can use Laser if he wants. It's not happened.

Ironically I think Moreno is almost a perfect player for Klopp's system. He pushes on up the pitch and helps press on the other team when they have the ball due to being so far forward. He also has the pace to get back quick if we lose the ball and have a lot of players far up the pitch due to the pressing style we play. That's why I think Klopp wants to use him when so many were saying "get rid of him" all the time. He just has too many mistakes in defence to actually really work now.

[700BHP]

RedTrident said:

700BHP said:

RedTrident said:

700BHP said:

RedTrident said:

No one would be complaining if Mignolet, Karius, Klavan, Lovren. Moreno, Clyne, Milner (left back) or Gomez were sold.

I strongly disagree.

They would not make any of the teams around us stronger imo.

Every one of those players (again imo) would not make the starting line up of Chelsea, Spurs, City or Utd. Probably not Arsenal either.

As for squad fillers, maybe Mignolet and Clyne.

Yet that is nearly our entire defence!

That's not what you said though. You said no-one would bat an eyelid if they were all sold.

That's patently not the case is it.

It might be your opinion, but it's unrealistic to state it as fact.

Which one of these will you cry over if we sold them? Go on, humour me.

And which team would any of these players improve?

I wouldn't even cry when/if Coutinho leaves.

It's a squad game. Those players are all in the first team squad, therefore despite not being first name on the team sheet, they are required.

You've named 8 players there. Our entire defence basically. Do you believe a fire sale and replacing the lot of them in one go would be sensible?

Perhaps you can name the 8 players you'd bring in to replace them that will, at a stroke, solve all our defensive deficiencies?

[London424]

RedTrident said:

Pommygranite said:

RedTrident said:

I think that a leader at the back would move the players wherever they needed to go depending on how the opposition deployed their players. In the absence of such leaders we will continue to concede whatever happens imo. Real life is different to drills.

Though their equaliser was nothing other than an individual mistake.

The Captain doesn't position people for Zonal Marking, the Manager does - you do know that right?

The leader at the back would see the opposition make a move and take command - you do know that right?

Just FYI but the leader would be making sure that each of the players was in the position and/or marking the players that the manager/coaching staff had told them. They wouldn't be making it up as they went along.

The only exception to that would be if there was an obvious mismatch that the opposition were picking on and then you'd be chatting to the manager about switching people around.

[jammy-git]

Does it really take a leader to have to tell players that they're not in the right position? Firmino look to be standing where he was pretty purposefully.

[Chris Stott]

I see a lot of similarities in Rogers and Klopps's philosophies, if not styles. Both were exponents of high pressing, attacking football, though I do think Klopp would have won the league with Stevie and Luis now, at the level they were the year we came 2nd.

Klopp is a much more engaging and charismatic 'leader', and it's clear the squad love him, but they seemed to love Rogers too, based on Stevie's comments on his autobiography. Still, Klopp is brilliant to listen to - none of the media training BS of Rogers.

However, I don't see any real improvement in our defence since Kkopp came in. And I mean nothing. Nada. Zip. Just the Same as under Rogers. Despite changes in personnel.

Easy to say this is because the funds to improve the personnel haven't been made available, but surely after 18 months you'd expect to see some technical improvement?

Personally, I think Klopp needs to have a proper think about how we are set up for set pieces. The current system just doesn't work. Get caught on the break? Fair enough when you play like we do. Constantly get mullered from corners and free kicks? Not fking on.

I like Klopp, but he's not the fking messia as far as I'm concerned (yet )

Edited by Chris Stott on Monday 14th August 21:44

[London424]

jammy-git said:

Does it really take a leader to have to tell players that they're not in the right position? Firmino look to be standing where he was pretty purposefully.

You'd be surprised. It's much easier when playing zonal, because as you say everyone knows where they should be standing.

Things do get messier if things like quick short corners are taken as you'll get in a muddle between the closest man shutting things down vs reorganising to fill the zones.

ETA: also when you get subs. Though they should come onto the pitch with instructions of where they go/who they're marking.

Edited by London424 on Monday 14th August 22:00

[700BHP]

Chris Stott said:

Personally, I think Klopp needs to have a proper think about how we are set up for set pieces. The current system just doesn't work. Get caught on the break? Fair enough when you play like we do. Constantly get mullered from corners and free kicks? Not fking on.

Spot on.

Perhaps "The Brain" can start using his and get it sorted.

[jammy-git]

London424 said:

jammy-git said:

Does it really take a leader to have to tell players that they're not in the right position? Firmino look to be standing where he was pretty purposefully.

You'd be surprised. It's much easier when playing zonal, because as you say everyone knows where they should be standing.

Things do get messier if things like quick short corners are taken as you'll get in a muddle between the closest man shutting things down vs reorganising to fill the zones.

ETA: also when you get subs. Though they should come onto the pitch with instructions of where they go/who they're marking.

Edited by London424 on Monday 14th August 22:00

Sorry, but if they can understand Klopp's pressing system; the triggers, when to drop off, where to be positioned to cut off passing lanes, etc, then knowing where to stand at corners should be a piece of piss.

[cerb4.5lee]

Chris Stott said:

I like Klopp, but he's not the fking messia as far as I'm concerned (yet )

I foolishly expected pretty big things from him because he's a proven winner...sadly it's not turned out that way, I still much prefer him to Rodgers for sure...although I don't see him winning anything for us either.