No red, not a yellow, but take a blue!
Discussion
Im on the fence a bit.For sure, the endless diving cheating and simulation needs to stop its absolutely f
king shameful seeing fit grown men screaming like a baby and rolling around at the slightest of touches. I am not sure how this sorts that out though.
The other part dissent definitely needs sorting out, I see kids replicating the premier league players and mouthing off to authority on the pitch each week, they set a really bad example and no matter what they think kids do idolise and copy all their behaviours. I cant think of a single other sport where the officials have to put up with any dissent let alone the abuse that officials in football get.
Its worth noting that the games rules we have now are a million miles away from the rules of 100 years ago, the game as we see it now evolved hugely to what it is now, so change is a part of the sport.
king shameful seeing fit grown men screaming like a baby and rolling around at the slightest of touches. I am not sure how this sorts that out though. The other part dissent definitely needs sorting out, I see kids replicating the premier league players and mouthing off to authority on the pitch each week, they set a really bad example and no matter what they think kids do idolise and copy all their behaviours. I cant think of a single other sport where the officials have to put up with any dissent let alone the abuse that officials in football get.
Its worth noting that the games rules we have now are a million miles away from the rules of 100 years ago, the game as we see it now evolved hugely to what it is now, so change is a part of the sport.
Bluevanman said:
Because footballers are human beings with emotions and not robots.....and because referees are constantly making wrong decisions they get frustrated.
Thanks to tv replays we now get to see just how inept referees really are
So are golf players, rugby players, [insert any other sport here] players - but we do not see anywhere near the level of personal abuse directed at officials in those sports. Funny enough if they do on the rare occasion, bang, off they go. Thanks to tv replays we now get to see just how inept referees really are
Being 'emotional' is and never has been an excuse to abuse referees. Its vile and its got well out of hand, even seeing the staff joining in on the act on the touchlines.
Referees would have such an easier job of it if they were not having to try and second guess whether a player is fouled or if they are simulating/cheating/diving. Given all the awful behaviour that goes on during a game refereeing is not an easy thing, they get more decisions right than wrong, but again that is no excuse for vile abuse even if they get it wrong.
Time4another said:
Dissent - Book them. More Dissent - Book them again. They're trying to answer a problem that they already have the tools for.
Football refs could do a lot to go and learn from rugby refs. None of the dramatics are tolerated. Should only be speaking to the team captain and whoever has been fouled or commited the foul. No players running the full length of the pitch to give the ref an ear full.
But that isnt a referee issue thats a player issue. The players know they can be binned or sent off for any dissent so dont do it.Football refs could do a lot to go and learn from rugby refs. None of the dramatics are tolerated. Should only be speaking to the team captain and whoever has been fouled or commited the foul. No players running the full length of the pitch to give the ref an ear full.
Unfortunately football doesnt seem to have strict enough rules around this. And you know every time a player is sent off what do we hear from the manager ... 'I didnt see it' ... and then talks about how bad the ref was (even if they got it spot on) skirting around the border of what they can get away with saying.
Bluevanman said:
I agree about players cheating, that's become indemic and I can't see how we can turn the clock back to the days when the only player diving was Francis Lee 
The lack of consistency by referees is a problem.
Every week this is highlighted by tv pundits.
Then again the more rules they bring in the harder it must be to ref consistently, especially when a lot of the rules are open to interpretation.
We need fewer rules and to make them easier to understand and implement.
We don't need sin bins, yellow card for dissent,do it again and it's a red .Simple
There is a myth around referees and their decision making. There have been studies showing that referees get the vast majority of decisions right. Of course they will get one or two wrong, but that is the law of averages playing out over the course of thousands of decisions made every weekend. The main problem is then MOTD finding one or two and making a huge deal out of it and framing it as referees struggle, when in fact they do quite well. The lack of consistency by referees is a problem.
Every week this is highlighted by tv pundits.
Then again the more rules they bring in the harder it must be to ref consistently, especially when a lot of the rules are open to interpretation.
We need fewer rules and to make them easier to understand and implement.
We don't need sin bins, yellow card for dissent,do it again and it's a red .Simple
The issue again drops right back at players feet, stop behaving like t
ts. Its not tolerated in any other sport globally, football is not a special case.Its also worth noting that all the football shows have ex players as pundits, so the views are heavily biased in favour of players.
fiatpower said:
Frimley111R said:
The problem is that a yellow for dissent is meaningless. A player can abuse the ref with effectively no consequences. A sin-bin cuts out any dissent.
It's the same for tactical fouls, a player can take out an opponent on the break and stop a very good goal-scoring opportunity. All the player gets is a yellow card and so a tactical foul is a no-brainer.
It’s not meaningless. It’s a warning and if they do anything else they’re off. The refs just need to have the balls to give a 2nd yellow and send them off as they seem reluctant to do that at the minuteIt's the same for tactical fouls, a player can take out an opponent on the break and stop a very good goal-scoring opportunity. All the player gets is a yellow card and so a tactical foul is a no-brainer.
If we really want to get rid of dissent, its a straight red. Im not sure why it should need two yellows, we shouldnt give players one opportunity each to abuse an official per match.
Bluevanman said:
Because,like with a lot of decisions,it's down to interpretation. The laws are too vague.
In a recent game a player on a yellow was fouled and got the freekick. He said that should be a card ref.The ref hadn't heard him clearly and asked him to repeat what he said.He repeated it and got a 2nd yellow and was therefore sent off.That's ludicrous
I agree the laws are in some cases the problem, but its also worth reading online about referring guidelines and how to issue cards, its quite an eye opener. For your example for instance no one can give a view on here because each incident is judged on that incident itself, context is very important within which the incident occurred as to what happens. This get misinterpreted as inconsistency, but, its a guideline which refs have which is available to all players and managers as well. In a recent game a player on a yellow was fouled and got the freekick. He said that should be a card ref.The ref hadn't heard him clearly and asked him to repeat what he said.He repeated it and got a 2nd yellow and was therefore sent off.That's ludicrous
If players stopped thinking that football is some sort of special case, that unsporting behaviour like the one described above is not OK, most of the problems go away. Instead changes like this have to come in to sort them out.
I dont particularly like rugby, but I cannot point at the participants in that sport and say they are 'spoiled loud mouthed cheating diving' and various other words. But ask someone who doesn't like football what they think of players and they would use all those words. All too often in football its far too easily brushed away that the players are at fault and blame laid elsewhere.
Frimley111R said:
Or....blue card = hammer time (F1 reference there) and the other team step up their attacks for 10 mins and it all gets exciting.
Yes thats the point isn't it, that the offending player gives the advantage to the other team to go on a power play and create a load of pressure on the other team. Actually it is pretty exciting watching a team hanging on whilst getting a hammering!Frimley111R said:
The big challenge is the huge number of football bods in the media who are all stuck in the past bleating on about how this changes/ruins the game. There's very little common sense or fair reporting. None will admit (apart from Gordon Strachan one time) that they all cheat and it is what they all do.
Yes exactly this. Its loaded with ex-players who wont say a bad word against most players but will literally want a referee strung up by his balls should he miss a decision. I find it funny when in the moment commentators on live TV shout out that the ref got it wrong but on the third angle shows the ref got it right they just very quickly move on and try to skip past their own bad judgement. Problem is now that players are so used to just complaining at every single decision given against them that going hard with yellows would no doubt end up at the feet of the refs again, media complaining that they are being heavy handed etc.
I think the FA moved to clarify that this is at the very start of the process. Refs at grassroots trying this out have fed back it was a very positive experience and improved behaviour in games.
The rules seem pretty simple to me, a blue is the same as a yellow but comes with a 10 minute sin bin. So if you get a yellow after a blue its the same as getting two yellows.
Whats bad about it is that it has come to this, that players cannot control themselves, that they behave like children when participants of every other sport seem much more capable of self control yet still display the same amount of emotion and desire. Its a sticky plaster for a problem for sure, but it would be completely unnecessary if plays and staff were not such self entitled tts.
The rules seem pretty simple to me, a blue is the same as a yellow but comes with a 10 minute sin bin. So if you get a yellow after a blue its the same as getting two yellows.
Whats bad about it is that it has come to this, that players cannot control themselves, that they behave like children when participants of every other sport seem much more capable of self control yet still display the same amount of emotion and desire. Its a sticky plaster for a problem for sure, but it would be completely unnecessary if plays and staff were not such self entitled t
ts.ajap1979 said:
The more football gets like rugby, the less I want to watch it.
As far as I can see, and I watch a lot of football, the dissent issue is being dealt with pretty well, with seemingly more players being booked for it this season than ever before. Perhaps I’m alone, but I like passion. I don’t want players reduced to analogous drones with no attitude. They’re trying to “perfect” it to the point where it’ll simply be boring to watch.
Go watch a rugby game up close and live, there is as much passion there as there is in football. The only difference is the lack of respect shown by players to officials in football vs rugby or in fact any other sport. Dissent isnt being dealt with at all, because literally every decision is met with dissent and abuse by players that are so self entitled its beyond belief. As far as I can see, and I watch a lot of football, the dissent issue is being dealt with pretty well, with seemingly more players being booked for it this season than ever before. Perhaps I’m alone, but I like passion. I don’t want players reduced to analogous drones with no attitude. They’re trying to “perfect” it to the point where it’ll simply be boring to watch.
.
NuckyThompson said:
Klopp whinging today saying if blue cards were in action it would have been carange,
That’s exactly the point! If your grown men earning hundreds of thousands a week card show respect to another human being during a game when other grown men playing a more brutal game called rugby can show the upmost respect to another human being and say yes sir no sir etc, then maybe you’re the problem and not the rules.
For Christ sake you’re paid millions and on tv every day of the week, set an example to young children, let them see that acting like a petulant idiot has consequences and f-Ing and blinding to a person of authority may well be wrong. Grow up, man up and behave.
It won’t make football less entertaining it will mean they actually get on with playing football. If we want to see play acting and sweating we’ll watch a Samuel l Jackson movie mate
Yep. They are all in the same mystical bubble together. If managers do not see the issue i.e. players are abusive, then there is no change of players changing if the boss gives it the green light. That’s exactly the point! If your grown men earning hundreds of thousands a week card show respect to another human being during a game when other grown men playing a more brutal game called rugby can show the upmost respect to another human being and say yes sir no sir etc, then maybe you’re the problem and not the rules.
For Christ sake you’re paid millions and on tv every day of the week, set an example to young children, let them see that acting like a petulant idiot has consequences and f-Ing and blinding to a person of authority may well be wrong. Grow up, man up and behave.
It won’t make football less entertaining it will mean they actually get on with playing football. If we want to see play acting and sweating we’ll watch a Samuel l Jackson movie mate
Maybe if fans all stood up at the ground together and said in unison 'stop abusing officials' and directed it at players and managers then they might have a light bulb moment that gets through to their thick skulls that its not ok.
In what other sport would slow clapping officials decisions be deemed ok and not worthy of punishment? I struggle again to see why football thinks it’s a special case?
I think this is the fundamental problem, if a player does this, it shows no respect for officials and we won’t see any change in their vile behaviour.
I think this is the fundamental problem, if a player does this, it shows no respect for officials and we won’t see any change in their vile behaviour.
johnboy1975 said:
[bold text]I get it (I really do) but to me there's a world of difference between being pissed off at a good decision gone against you, and being pissed off at a terrible decision gone against you[/bold text]
Dyche's 3 yellows were all for valid complaints (IMO, and Everton bias possibly showing). I think one was for the no yellow for the obvious 2nd yellow for Konate when he hauled one of our players down in the Derby? Postscript - Much frothing from Klopp when Konate was correctly sent off for two yellows against Arsenal- the 2nd yellow was nigh on identical...
Then you have Klopp doing summersaults along the touchline and no card, but others step outside the technical area and get booked. Doubt the unbiased commentary team will call this out?
Asking for consistency is a fools errard, but I feel we have to try. At PL level at least with retrospective yellows / yellows removed on appeal. Not entirely sure you can appeal a yellow currently?
But how would a player know at the time if the decision was right or not? How many players dont actually know a lot of the more intricate rules. How many complain about being called offside when they are clearly offside? Even if when a decision goes against you and you saw the ball come off their player for a throw in, its just a bloody throw in yet they go into histrionics like the ref just blew a whistle and relegated them. Dyche's 3 yellows were all for valid complaints (IMO, and Everton bias possibly showing). I think one was for the no yellow for the obvious 2nd yellow for Konate when he hauled one of our players down in the Derby? Postscript - Much frothing from Klopp when Konate was correctly sent off for two yellows against Arsenal- the 2nd yellow was nigh on identical...
Then you have Klopp doing summersaults along the touchline and no card, but others step outside the technical area and get booked. Doubt the unbiased commentary team will call this out?
Asking for consistency is a fools errard, but I feel we have to try. At PL level at least with retrospective yellows / yellows removed on appeal. Not entirely sure you can appeal a yellow currently?
As for consistency, the refs apply the law as and when they see it. They are also instructed by the association to take into account context, and other factors, it is subjective. But thats how players and managers want it, that they want refs to take the situation into account - only they dont like it when it doesn't work in their favour.
One thing I do like is when you have an ex-pro ref involved, you get the pundits going 'oh thats a yellow all day stonewall yellow' then the ref explains the actual rules which then show why the ref didnt give one and then the pundit says 'well ok yea erm well in my book thats a yellow' - which is the main problem, players and managers dont know all the rules.
Yes top level referees get a retainer then earn on top of that by the game. Its a good salary, but it has to be, you cant pay someone 25k a year to manage a premier league match where teams can go bankrupt off the back of a referees decision - refs needed to be working full time, attend all the training and courses over the season, and be paid enough and contracted.
Danny Murphy wasnt it? He is very much in the camp of 'dont change anything' although his version of football is very different to what football was like just 40 or 50 years ago when I am sure if he was around then would have been 'dont change anything' - basically the sort of person that would have opposed red and yellow cards being introduced probably because it would have 'confused everyone', or goalkeepers being allowed gloves because 'they should be tough enough' and so on.
Yes 'taking one for the team' was so frustrating to see, Blackburn getting that break, a hard fought chance to break after sustained pressure and boom the guy just wrestles him for a yellow and a non event freekick on the halfway line. Totally ruined the moment as a spectacle (if we want to use the VAR thing around ruining the moment as a reason).
Yes 'taking one for the team' was so frustrating to see, Blackburn getting that break, a hard fought chance to break after sustained pressure and boom the guy just wrestles him for a yellow and a non event freekick on the halfway line. Totally ruined the moment as a spectacle (if we want to use the VAR thing around ruining the moment as a reason).
Frimley111R said:
Yeah, probably, wasn't sure. A lot of these old skool footballers are very resistant to change. It's hard because changes to football are so rare that no-one expects them and when they do happen it's met with horror. In other sports they just accept it as part of the development of the game.
Separately it does seem (and is) so disrespectful when a player is shown a card but is already walking off with his back to the ref.
The funny thing is, football as Danny Murphy knows it, has gone through such huge change over the years to get it to the 'perfect' set up it is as he sees it. Danny Murphy of 1950 would think the same, Danny Murphy of 2080 will think the same.Separately it does seem (and is) so disrespectful when a player is shown a card but is already walking off with his back to the ref.
And yes the turning of the back is just one of so many disrespectful things players do to officials, its just a symptom of a general underlying issue with respect in the game.
I think the standard of refereeing is pretty good in the Premier League, and the stats would tend to agree. There are a few fallacies at play:
We only remember the decisions they get wrong, we dont remember the ones they get right
We don't notice the ones where the ref lets game continue when a player wanted a decision and the ref decided against it
We don't know the rules and incorrectly judge the ref to have made a mistake when its actually us
There have been a number of studies of refereeing in the PL and last one showed that a referee gets around 98% of decisions correct, they make decisions around 250 times per match which is one every 20 seconds, some are visible ie a whistle blown some are not ie referee decides that no infringement took place and play continues.
Looking at their physical stats is quite impressive, over 800 changes in direction each game, 1400 activity changes each game, the levels of concentration over 90 mins is quite staggering. When you think players get those breaks the ref is 'always on'.
We only remember the decisions they get wrong, we dont remember the ones they get right
We don't notice the ones where the ref lets game continue when a player wanted a decision and the ref decided against it
We don't know the rules and incorrectly judge the ref to have made a mistake when its actually us
There have been a number of studies of refereeing in the PL and last one showed that a referee gets around 98% of decisions correct, they make decisions around 250 times per match which is one every 20 seconds, some are visible ie a whistle blown some are not ie referee decides that no infringement took place and play continues.
Looking at their physical stats is quite impressive, over 800 changes in direction each game, 1400 activity changes each game, the levels of concentration over 90 mins is quite staggering. When you think players get those breaks the ref is 'always on'.
Gassing Station | Football | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff