The Blue Brain project.--Building a human brain.
Discussion
"The Blue Brain Project is an attempt to create a synthetic brain by reverse-engineering the mammalian brain down to the molecular level."
The initial goal of the project, completed in December 2006,[3] was the simulation of a rat neocortical column, which can be considered the smallest functional unit of the neocortex (the part of the brain thought to be responsible for higher functions such as conscious thought). Such a column is about 2 mm tall, has a diameter of 0.5 mm and contains about 60,000 neurons in humans; rat neocortical columns are very similar in structure but contain only 10,000 neurons (and 108 synapses). Between 1995 and 2005, Markram mapped the types of neurons and their connections in such a column.
A longer term goal is to build a detailed, functional simulation of the physiological processes in the human brain: "It is not impossible to build a human brain and we can do it in 10 years," Henry Markram, director of the Blue Brain Project said in 2009 at the TED conference in Oxford.[4] In a BBC World Service interview he said: "If we build it correctly it should speak and have an intelligence and behave very much as a human does."
So ten years time. That's not long.
The initial goal of the project, completed in December 2006,[3] was the simulation of a rat neocortical column, which can be considered the smallest functional unit of the neocortex (the part of the brain thought to be responsible for higher functions such as conscious thought). Such a column is about 2 mm tall, has a diameter of 0.5 mm and contains about 60,000 neurons in humans; rat neocortical columns are very similar in structure but contain only 10,000 neurons (and 108 synapses). Between 1995 and 2005, Markram mapped the types of neurons and their connections in such a column.
A longer term goal is to build a detailed, functional simulation of the physiological processes in the human brain: "It is not impossible to build a human brain and we can do it in 10 years," Henry Markram, director of the Blue Brain Project said in 2009 at the TED conference in Oxford.[4] In a BBC World Service interview he said: "If we build it correctly it should speak and have an intelligence and behave very much as a human does."
So ten years time. That's not long.
Blue brain website: http://bluebrain.epfl.ch/page-56882-en.html
That's quite something, potentially the first computer to be as intelligent as a human being. Even if if takes them 15 or 20 years it'll be a real landmark, especially if the computer feels it has a consciousness and sense of self.
Given that we have been growing brains from scratch for some years now and brain machine interfaces are already available as consumer goods, the next decade or two is going to be very interesting.
As time goes by I suspect there won't be so much human vs machine, more of a continuum from human to machine with many creatures falling in to a gray area inbetween.
That's quite something, potentially the first computer to be as intelligent as a human being. Even if if takes them 15 or 20 years it'll be a real landmark, especially if the computer feels it has a consciousness and sense of self.
Given that we have been growing brains from scratch for some years now and brain machine interfaces are already available as consumer goods, the next decade or two is going to be very interesting.
As time goes by I suspect there won't be so much human vs machine, more of a continuum from human to machine with many creatures falling in to a gray area inbetween.
jas xjr said:
Is it true that we do not understand a fraction of what the human brain is capable of ?
If that is the case how can we hope to replicate it ?
Are you refering to the commonly held view that we only use about 10% of our brains? Someone cleverer than me will probably clarify but I believe it is myth and stems from the idea that we do use 100% of our brains just not all the time. So for instance at the moment I'm using the bit of my brain that allows me to post on a website forum however I'm not using the bit that allows me to drive a car.If that is the case how can we hope to replicate it ?
Bedazzled said:
carmonk said:
I wonder how it will learn. People learn by experience over many years, through moving around and touching and tasting and watching adults. I can imagine that whatever intelligence is produced will be markedly different from a person. Interesting to see.
About 20 years ago I knew a lecturer at uni who was developing AI neural nets that could learn, you could even have a conversation with it; I was convinced he was trying to build himself a girlfriend.Sure, there will need to be connections from the outside world but human learning is so much more than that, there are many different ways in which a person learns. For example, associative learning will teach a child that when you touch something hot it hurts, but to understand what 'hot' is requires limbs, sensory organs and a nervous system as well as a brain. A computer that resembled just the brain couldn't operate, in the same way as if you isolate a human brain from stimulus it will very quickly go mad and lose the ability to think.
carmonk said:
I wonder how it will learn.
Currently AI learns in a similar way to babies and is in many ways on a similar intellectual level. Here's a James May video from 2009 which gives a good idea of where we're at just now.In future the idea is to plug it in to google and away you go. OK so it's not quite that simple but networks like soinn are being developed to let robots learn from each other with out human intervention, eg if one robot learns how to make a cup of tea then another robot can simply log on and find out what a cup is, what tea is, how to make it etc.
Once we get to the stage of robots understanding google the lecturer Bedazzled mentioned will have a very well educated girlfriend.
where do the ethics stand in regard to developing a self aware artificial mind
with human levels of intelligence?
whilst fascinating i also find it a little disturbing and im sure the religious
types will not be at all happy having what they would see as
soul less beings existing!
if you were presented with a device or robot with an AI as smart and aware
as you were could you switch it off and would you have the moral right too?
Interesting times.
with human levels of intelligence?
whilst fascinating i also find it a little disturbing and im sure the religious
types will not be at all happy having what they would see as
soul less beings existing!
if you were presented with a device or robot with an AI as smart and aware
as you were could you switch it off and would you have the moral right too?
Interesting times.
Getragdogleg said:
What is a soul ?
Have any of us got one or do we just have self awareness ?
If an artifical brain thinks it is aware of itself then it has as much a claim to a soul as we do since we nor it knows if souls even exist.
There was a very good sci-fi book about 'soul waves' which leave the body when we die --unfortunately I have forgotten the title.Have any of us got one or do we just have self awareness ?
If an artifical brain thinks it is aware of itself then it has as much a claim to a soul as we do since we nor it knows if souls even exist.
It was a murder thriller type of book.
Just looked this up --the book might be called 'The Terminal Experiment'
Edited by jbudgie on Monday 13th February 18:22
There was an article i read a long time ago that postulated that the human soul has a weight that is measurable, interesting theory, tested by having people die in a bed that is on very sensitive scales.
There were number of volunteers and allegedly a figure was arrived at.
ETA: http://www.noeticsciences.co.uk/weighting-the-huma...
Make of this what you will, I am not calling it either way and I don't want to see any "woowoo" responses, take it at face value and either forget it or file it under "Hmmm, curious" in the old brain as am not saying it is true or that i endorse it in any way.
I don't want to get a woowoo reputation in here !
There were number of volunteers and allegedly a figure was arrived at.
ETA: http://www.noeticsciences.co.uk/weighting-the-huma...
Make of this what you will, I am not calling it either way and I don't want to see any "woowoo" responses, take it at face value and either forget it or file it under "Hmmm, curious" in the old brain as am not saying it is true or that i endorse it in any way.
I don't want to get a woowoo reputation in here !
Edited by Getragdogleg on Monday 13th February 18:29
Getragdogleg said:
There was an article i read a long time ago that postulated that the human soul has a weight that is measurable, interesting theory, tested by having people die in a bed that is on very sensitive scales.
There were number of volunteers and allegedly a figure was arrived at.
ETA: http://www.noeticsciences.co.uk/weighting-the-huma...
Make of this what you will, I am not calling it either way and I don't want to see any "woowoo" responses, take it at face value and either forget it or file it under "Hmmm, curious" in the old brain as am not saying it is true or that i endorse it in any way.
I don't want to get a woowoo reputation in here !
It is curious - curious that a scientist could make such claims and still remain a scientist. Personally I don't believe that this ever happened as stated. Certainly I can't find any other mention of a Becker Mertens ever existing.There were number of volunteers and allegedly a figure was arrived at.
ETA: http://www.noeticsciences.co.uk/weighting-the-huma...
Make of this what you will, I am not calling it either way and I don't want to see any "woowoo" responses, take it at face value and either forget it or file it under "Hmmm, curious" in the old brain as am not saying it is true or that i endorse it in any way.
I don't want to get a woowoo reputation in here !
Edited by Getragdogleg on Monday 13th February 18:29
Getragdogleg said:
There was an article i read a long time ago that postulated that the human soul has a weight that is measurable, interesting theory, tested by having people die in a bed that is on very sensitive scales.
There were number of volunteers and allegedly a figure was arrived at.
ETA: http://www.noeticsciences.co.uk/weighting-the-huma...
Make of this what you will, I am not calling it either way and I don't want to see any "woowoo" responses, take it at face value and either forget it or file it under "Hmmm, curious" in the old brain as am not saying it is true or that i endorse it in any way.
I don't want to get a woowoo reputation in here !
The image in that article is from fermilab in the states, whoever did the website didn't even rename the pic. Thanks for a quick giggle though.There were number of volunteers and allegedly a figure was arrived at.
ETA: http://www.noeticsciences.co.uk/weighting-the-huma...
Make of this what you will, I am not calling it either way and I don't want to see any "woowoo" responses, take it at face value and either forget it or file it under "Hmmm, curious" in the old brain as am not saying it is true or that i endorse it in any way.
I don't want to get a woowoo reputation in here !
Edited by Getragdogleg on Monday 13th February 18:29
ShayneJ said:
where do the ethics stand in regard to developing a self aware artificial mind
with human levels of intelligence?
whilst fascinating i also find it a little disturbing and im sure the religious
types will not be at all happy having what they would see as
soul less beings existing!
if you were presented with a device or robot with an AI as smart and aware
as you were could you switch it off and would you have the moral right too?
Interesting times.
Look for the movie "Transcendent Man", Ray Kurzweil is well respected by many, even if you think the content is wild, it raises some interesting debate. with human levels of intelligence?
whilst fascinating i also find it a little disturbing and im sure the religious
types will not be at all happy having what they would see as
soul less beings existing!
if you were presented with a device or robot with an AI as smart and aware
as you were could you switch it off and would you have the moral right too?
Interesting times.
Getragdogleg said:
There was an article i read a long time ago that postulated that the human soul has a weight that is measurable, interesting theory, tested by having people die in a bed that is on very sensitive scales.
There were number of volunteers and allegedly a figure was arrived at.
ETA: http://www.noeticsciences.co.uk/weighting-the-huma...
Make of this what you will, I am not calling it either way and I don't want to see any "woowoo" responses, take it at face value and either forget it or file it under "Hmmm, curious" in the old brain as am not saying it is true or that i endorse it in any way.
I don't want to get a woowoo reputation in here !
Okay I'll call it BullsThere were number of volunteers and allegedly a figure was arrived at.
ETA: http://www.noeticsciences.co.uk/weighting-the-huma...
Make of this what you will, I am not calling it either way and I don't want to see any "woowoo" responses, take it at face value and either forget it or file it under "Hmmm, curious" in the old brain as am not saying it is true or that i endorse it in any way.
I don't want to get a woowoo reputation in here !
t. There are so many practical issues with making a measurement of that resolution as to make it impossible. They say they accounted for the loss of air in the lungs - how? I also presume these (probably fictitious) dying people moved around a little bit, even after they had just died. Even the slightest twitch would mess up the readings. So bullst to this one from me. I can just imagine the scenario. "Okay Bob, it looks like the end is nigh so lets get you on those scales pronto. There now keep real still until you die".
Edited by uktrailmonster on Wednesday 15th February 10:41
There is a really good "The life scientific" on the I player about the life of a Doctor who's devoted his career to the study of pychosis and shizophrenia.
I'd happilly believe that they can do clever AI on clever machines, even organic computers, that mimic mammalian brains within a few years, but actually build something that works as a human brain to the point it could be transplanted into a person? I don't think they'll ever do that.
Christ on a scooter, the ethical and philisophical ramifications are enough to bring a civilisation down let alone what happens when the things go faulty, humanity would cease to be, personal identity would become meaningless, we'd cease to exist as individuals, it would be like living in china.
I'd happilly believe that they can do clever AI on clever machines, even organic computers, that mimic mammalian brains within a few years, but actually build something that works as a human brain to the point it could be transplanted into a person? I don't think they'll ever do that.
Christ on a scooter, the ethical and philisophical ramifications are enough to bring a civilisation down let alone what happens when the things go faulty, humanity would cease to be, personal identity would become meaningless, we'd cease to exist as individuals, it would be like living in china.
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