Climate Change - The Scientific Debate (Vol. II)
Discussion
robinessex said:
LoonyTunes said:
grumbledoak said:
GroundEffect said:
Yet all of science relies on it. And it has this really monotonous ability to work as well. A colossal bore.
All of science? Hardly. And I would happily bet that modern reliance on it is well correlated with the fall in reproducibility."If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to do a better experiment."
However, in the context of data science this might help
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s41060-0...
In short anyone dismissing statistical mathematics is a fool.
In statistics, many statistical tests calculate correlations between variables and when two variables are found to be correlated, it is tempting to assume that this shows that one variable causes the other That "correlation proves causation" is considered a questionable cause logical fallacy when two events occurring together are taken to have established a cause-and-effect relationship. This fallacy is also known as cum hoc ergo propter hoc, Latin for "with this, therefore because of this", and "false cause". A similar fallacy, that an event that followed another was necessarily a consequence of the first event, is the post hoc ergo propter hoc (Latin for "after this, therefore because of this.") fallacy.
Go back even further to David Hume and you will find we can have no knowledge of causation because we can only observe correlation. This means to assert causation we have to include theory/assumptions (c.f. Kant and others). For climate there is heaps of that, which has been accumulated by the scientific community over the course of a hundred years or so. The idea that correlation is used as the reason to think that CO2 causes warming shows a profound ignorance of the scientific research that has been carried out on this topic.
hairykrishna said:
The concept that any science which relies on statistics can be dismissed out of hand is perhaps the best illustration yet of the level of scientific understanding on the sceptic side. The idea is nonsensical.
The concept that one individual somehow represents the entire level of understanding on the sceptic side is perhaps the best illustration yet of the lack of scientific understanding on the believer side...... The idea is nonsensical.HTH
Jinx said:
hairykrishna said:
The concept that any science which relies on statistics can be dismissed out of hand is perhaps the best illustration yet of the level of scientific understanding on the sceptic side. The idea is nonsensical.
The concept that one individual somehow represents the entire level of understanding on the sceptic side is perhaps the best illustration yet of the lack of scientific understanding on the believer side...... The idea is nonsensical.HTH
hairykrishna said:
The concept that any science which relies on statistics can be dismissed out of hand is perhaps the best illustration yet of the level of scientific understanding on the sceptic side. The idea is nonsensical.
That's either an attempt at a strawman or a very embarrassing reading comprehension fail.grumbledoak said:
hairykrishna said:
The concept that any science which relies on statistics can be dismissed out of hand is perhaps the best illustration yet of the level of scientific understanding on the sceptic side. The idea is nonsensical.
That's either an attempt at a strawman or a very embarrassing reading comprehension fail.robinessex said:
Statistics. Mathematical guessing. So I was told at the start of my statistics stuff at college many years ago!
You then saidgrumbledoak said:
And I would happily bet that modern reliance on it is well correlated with the fall in reproducibility.
"If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to do a better experiment."
So it's neither of the things you say it is."If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to do a better experiment."
LoonyTunes said:
Then please ask your fellow skeptic to refrain from posting as he's doing you all a disservice posting quotes that every GCSE level student would know let alone research scientists and the like.
I hate to tell you this but there isn't a conspiracy of sceptics trying to murder Gaia to get profits from oil companies for ermm.. world domination or something. People are perfectly entitled to their own opinions and whilst many of us share a healthy scepticism of anthropogenic CO2 induced catastrophic climate change (TM) that doesn't mean we are sceptical for the same reasons.
So no there is no disservice to anyone but themselves.
Jinx said:
LoonyTunes said:
Then please ask your fellow skeptic to refrain from posting as he's doing you all a disservice posting quotes that every GCSE level student would know let alone research scientists and the like.
I hate to tell you this but there isn't a conspiracy of sceptics trying to murder Gaia to get profits from oil companies for ermm.. world domination or something. People are perfectly entitled to their own opinions and whilst many of us share a healthy scepticism of anthropogenic CO2 induced catastrophic climate change (TM) that doesn't mean we are sceptical for the same reasons.
So no there is no disservice to anyone but themselves.
Jinx said:
LoonyTunes said:
Then please ask your fellow skeptic to refrain from posting as he's doing you all a disservice posting quotes that every GCSE level student would know let alone research scientists and the like.
I hate to tell you this but there isn't a conspiracy of sceptics trying to murder Gaia to get profits from oil companies for ermm.. world domination or something. People are perfectly entitled to their own opinions and whilst many of us share a healthy scepticism of anthropogenic CO2 induced catastrophic climate change (TM) that doesn't mean we are sceptical for the same reasons.
So no there is no disservice to anyone but themselves.
Kawasicki said:
The science is quite clear. We are living in a relatively cool interglacial period, and the highest quality data we have indicates that the current rate of change of temperature is unremarkable.
Unless anyone can provide data to the contrary.
Human civilisation and agriculture didn't exist in previous interglacials, so what is the relevance of previous interglacials being warmer?Unless anyone can provide data to the contrary.
ludo said:
Kawasicki said:
The science is quite clear. We are living in a relatively cool interglacial period, and the highest quality data we have indicates that the current rate of change of temperature is unremarkable.
Unless anyone can provide data to the contrary.
Human civilisation and agriculture didn't exist in previous interglacials, so what is the relevance of previous interglacials being warmer?Unless anyone can provide data to the contrary.
We evolved in previous interglacial periods. When life was tough, and much warmer than today.
Do you expect a constant climate?
Kawasicki said:
ludo said:
Kawasicki said:
The science is quite clear. We are living in a relatively cool interglacial period, and the highest quality data we have indicates that the current rate of change of temperature is unremarkable.
Unless anyone can provide data to the contrary.
Human civilisation and agriculture didn't exist in previous interglacials, so what is the relevance of previous interglacials being warmer?Unless anyone can provide data to the contrary.
We evolved in previous interglacial periods. When life was tough, and much warmer than today.
Do you expect a constant climate?
IIRC the Neanderthals were on their way to extinction before modern humans established themselves in Europe, they didn't survive into the interglacial.
Kawasicki said:
Do you expect a constant climate?
Of course I don't and you know perfectly well that I don't, so that is just cheap rhetoric, rather than a genuine scientific question. That sort of thing is best left to the politics thread.So, what is the relevance of previous interglacials being warmer to the risks associated with current climate change, as for example set out by the IPCC reports?
Kawasicki said:
ludo said:
Kawasicki said:
The science is quite clear. We are living in a relatively cool interglacial period, and the highest quality data we have indicates that the current rate of change of temperature is unremarkable.
Unless anyone can provide data to the contrary.
Human civilisation and agriculture didn't exist in previous interglacials, so what is the relevance of previous interglacials being warmer?Unless anyone can provide data to the contrary.
We evolved in previous interglacial periods. When life was tough, and much warmer than today.
Do you expect a constant climate?
Ironically, the reason we're able to do that is highly likely connected to the fact the climate has been relatively stable for the last few thousand years enabling human civilisation to flourish.
kerplunk said:
Kawasicki said:
ludo said:
Kawasicki said:
The science is quite clear. We are living in a relatively cool interglacial period, and the highest quality data we have indicates that the current rate of change of temperature is unremarkable.
Unless anyone can provide data to the contrary.
Human civilisation and agriculture didn't exist in previous interglacials, so what is the relevance of previous interglacials being warmer?Unless anyone can provide data to the contrary.
We evolved in previous interglacial periods. When life was tough, and much warmer than today.
Do you expect a constant climate?
Ironically, the reason we're able to do that is highly likely connected to the fact the climate has been relatively stable for the last few thousand years enabling human civilisation to flourish.
ludo said:
Kawasicki said:
ludo said:
Kawasicki said:
The science is quite clear. We are living in a relatively cool interglacial period, and the highest quality data we have indicates that the current rate of change of temperature is unremarkable.
Unless anyone can provide data to the contrary.
Human civilisation and agriculture didn't exist in previous interglacials, so what is the relevance of previous interglacials being warmer?Unless anyone can provide data to the contrary.
We evolved in previous interglacial periods. When life was tough, and much warmer than today.
Do you expect a constant climate?
IIRC the Neanderthals were on their way to extinction before modern humans established themselves in Europe, they didn't survive into the interglacial.
Kawasicki said:
Do you expect a constant climate?
Of course I don't and you know perfectly well that I don't, so that is just cheap rhetoric, rather than a genuine scientific question. That sort of thing is best left to the politics thread.So, what is the relevance of previous interglacials being warmer to the risks associated with current climate change, as for example set out by the IPCC reports?
My logic is that whether or not the area was populated in the past is irrelevant to the current earthquake risk.
Kawasicki said:
ludo said:
Kawasicki said:
ludo said:
Kawasicki said:
The science is quite clear. We are living in a relatively cool interglacial period, and the highest quality data we have indicates that the current rate of change of temperature is unremarkable.
Unless anyone can provide data to the contrary.
Human civilisation and agriculture didn't exist in previous interglacials, so what is the relevance of previous interglacials being warmer?Unless anyone can provide data to the contrary.
We evolved in previous interglacial periods. When life was tough, and much warmer than today.
Do you expect a constant climate?
IIRC the Neanderthals were on their way to extinction before modern humans established themselves in Europe, they didn't survive into the interglacial.
Kawasicki said:
Do you expect a constant climate?
Of course I don't and you know perfectly well that I don't, so that is just cheap rhetoric, rather than a genuine scientific question. That sort of thing is best left to the politics thread.So, what is the relevance of previous interglacials being warmer to the risks associated with current climate change, as for example set out by the IPCC reports?
My logic is that whether or not the area was populated in the past is irrelevant to the current earthquake risk.
Our civilisation and agriculture is highly adapted to the climate of this interglacial. Any change from that will require adaption which has a cost. The larger the change, the bigger the cost. As the worlds population has increased very sharply over the last hundred years or so, we don't have the resources to cope with a large increase in global temperatures without there being considerable hardship (mostly not for those in the developed world). We might easily be able to avoid extinction from a 2C increase in temperature, but it will result in hardship (or worse) for some.
Gassing Station | Science! | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff