I've been paid twice - do I say anything??
Discussion
You said it, so don't give it back. Just don't complain when you try to get a new job and your new employer learns you lost/left your previous job because of fraud/theft/dishonesty...
mysteryman said:I'm not at all worried about legal implications or loosing my job; it's their f**k-up.
Leaping in at this late juncture......
Never mind the morals
If the company does not have to change tack/sack people etc then hang on to it. Sod 'em. If they are anything like most companies then you are just a speck of fly shit on their window. Giving it back will not earn any brownie points so......
Keep it in the bank and get yourself something nice this time next year
DONT FRITTER IT AWAY
Never mind the morals
If the company does not have to change tack/sack people etc then hang on to it. Sod 'em. If they are anything like most companies then you are just a speck of fly shit on their window. Giving it back will not earn any brownie points so......
Keep it in the bank and get yourself something nice this time next year
DONT FRITTER IT AWAY
If you are in receipt of money to which you are knowingly not entitled and you don't return it, you are guilty of theft.
Even if you are lucky and it gets past the auditors chances are it won't get past the computerised payroll system. It will either adjust your tax for the remainder of the year automatically,or it will show up on your P60. The Inland Revenue will adjust your taxcode accordingly for the following year, so you'll pay the tax on it at least.
As posting on here represents some sort of conscience at work, can you keep it?
Andy
Even if you are lucky and it gets past the auditors chances are it won't get past the computerised payroll system. It will either adjust your tax for the remainder of the year automatically,or it will show up on your P60. The Inland Revenue will adjust your taxcode accordingly for the following year, so you'll pay the tax on it at least.
As posting on here represents some sort of conscience at work, can you keep it?
Andy
My reasoning for posting isn't morally motivated - just wanted your thoughts on if it was something anyone else had come across and what the outcome was.
Knowing my employer:
they won't fire me
they are a faceless blue-chip
they treat employees like sh1t when it suits them
I doubt they'll pick up on it
Knowing my employer:
they won't fire me
they are a faceless blue-chip
they treat employees like sh1t when it suits them
I doubt they'll pick up on it
FYI I know two individuals that this has happened to. In both cases they kept the cash, but safe and untouched in a seperate account just in case (paranoid!).
In both cases they were asked to return the cash, (paranoia can be good!) which they did. Whether it's worth the hassle of keeping schtum and looking shifty just get <4% in an ISA on the cash, is up to you.....
In both cases they were asked to return the cash, (paranoia can be good!) which they did. Whether it's worth the hassle of keeping schtum and looking shifty just get <4% in an ISA on the cash, is up to you.....
s2k said: Without wishing to start a slagging match I find it a great shame that you've even got to think about this. It's a no-brainer - it's not yours so give it back.
Paul
>> Edited by s2k on Wednesday 7th May 16:27
Quite agree!
My wife changed the account into which her wages are paid some time ago.Her salery fluctuates(supply teacher),anyway she looked in her former account one day only to discover £300 extra!
Building society had no idea where it came from so we just left it.Sure enough her employers wrote to her 3 months later sayIng that they had made a mistake and could she pay it back at her lesiure!!
They always catch up in the end.
I once picked up my wage packet from the office to find a letter with it explaining that they had noticed "an error" in my pay and that they had made "an adjustment". Somebody had moved the decimal point one place to the right!!!! £2500 instead of £250 (We are talking about 25 years ago.....)
Not difficult to spot when being paid in cash.......
Not difficult to spot when being paid in cash.......
My 0.5p's worth (can't afford the 2p)
1/ As it's come via different routes - the chances of detection are very small. BACS might have been the ones who made the mistake and not even noticed.
2/ You have only 1 document showing ONE payment true?
So how can you be expected to notice they made a mistake :mindreader: ? - especially as got paid it ONCE ONLY ? RIGHT (don't argue with this)
Plead ignorence - if you did get it twice- it must have made such a small dent in your overdraft you didn't notice it!
NOT that I would even contemplate suggesting anything slightly dodgy
1/ As it's come via different routes - the chances of detection are very small. BACS might have been the ones who made the mistake and not even noticed.
2/ You have only 1 document showing ONE payment true?
So how can you be expected to notice they made a mistake :mindreader: ? - especially as got paid it ONCE ONLY ? RIGHT (don't argue with this)
Plead ignorence - if you did get it twice- it must have made such a small dent in your overdraft you didn't notice it!
NOT that I would even contemplate suggesting anything slightly dodgy
mysteryman said: The way it came about is I should have been paid the commission last month, but it wasn't in my pay packet. I whined and got it paid through in a BACS payment - about a week after pay day (and not in my normal pay cheque). I then got paid the commission again in my pay cheque this month.
Hmmm...
Couldn’t the fact that you prodded them into doing things different (ok so they may have been late in the first place) be interpreted as causing the extra payments and possibly considered as fraud.
Alternatively send your boss an email (something in writing and recorded) thanking him for the bonus payment and layering it on thick how it really inspired you to win those new contracts or something.
Then hope he will feel bad enough not to ask for it back and thus destroying your faith in the company
flasher said:
Stick the money in the bank and if they ask for it, pay it to them, if they don't then you can keep it. It's their mistake and legally you don't have to pay it back until they realise their error....
This is my opinion also. Keep it until they ask for it back. If they do, give it to them (but don't forget to plead hardship otherwise they'll be suss) and be thankful for the free interest. If they don't, put it towards a TVR. I would wait at least 3 months after the end of the financial year.
If you knowingly keep money paid to you in error, this is THEFT.
There is plently of criminal law authority which establishes the point.
If the police became involved, you could be charged with the offence. If I was representing you in such circumstances, I would be advising you to plead guilty....
There is no time limit on such a prosecution being brought.
The fact that you have salted the money in a separate account simply serves to prove your dishonest intent permanently to deprive the rightful owner of his cash.
I wouldn't want to risk the possibility of acquiring a criminal record for a couple of grand.
Give it back.
Now.
There is plently of criminal law authority which establishes the point.
If the police became involved, you could be charged with the offence. If I was representing you in such circumstances, I would be advising you to plead guilty....
There is no time limit on such a prosecution being brought.
The fact that you have salted the money in a separate account simply serves to prove your dishonest intent permanently to deprive the rightful owner of his cash.
I wouldn't want to risk the possibility of acquiring a criminal record for a couple of grand.
Give it back.
Now.
Just own up to it and give it back. Forget whether or not it will earn you brownie points for the future or if it's criminal or not. It's just plain wrong to keep it. Flip it 180 for a second - if your company UNDERpaid you and decided not to correct the mistake until YOU pointed it out, you'd be on here complaining about how sh1t your company is and how this country is going up the spout. The fact is that the money isn't yours to keep. Not for a year, not for a month, not for a day. And as well as the company getting it back from you eventually - which they undoubtedly will - there is a little thing called karma which will take something back from you at some point in the future.
Just do the right thing, hold your head up high, and earn the right to take the moral high ground over all your mates on any issue for the rest of your life.
All IMHO, of course.
Gaz
>> Edited by GAZ_3884 on Wednesday 7th May 20:40
Just do the right thing, hold your head up high, and earn the right to take the moral high ground over all your mates on any issue for the rest of your life.
All IMHO, of course.
Gaz
>> Edited by GAZ_3884 on Wednesday 7th May 20:40
You Must Not keep this money It is covered by Section 16 Theft Act 1968 and is called Retaining a wrongful Credit if you do not tell them about it and they find out, you may end up with a criminal conviction under the theft act and a severe sentence as it will be construed as larceny servant ( Theft from Employer ) and is regarded by judges as a breach of trust.
Retaining a wrongful credit carries a penalty of 10 years imprisonment. There is no time limit in which the money actually becomes yours. The longer you do not tell them, the more evidence of dishonest intent on your part is attracted and you will have no reasonable excuse for your defence to the act. the money can never be yours unless the employer actually sanctions your possession of it. Leaving it untouched in a seperate high interest account and just taking the benefit of the interest will not avail you of a defence to this charge if you are discovered.
This is a dodgy one. My advice is if you are not of the criminal fraterinty alreasdy and willing to take a risk on joining it, then do something positive about it and return the money.
How would you feel if the tables were turned and someone kept something of yours that you had allowed them to have by mistake?
Retaining a wrongful credit carries a penalty of 10 years imprisonment. There is no time limit in which the money actually becomes yours. The longer you do not tell them, the more evidence of dishonest intent on your part is attracted and you will have no reasonable excuse for your defence to the act. the money can never be yours unless the employer actually sanctions your possession of it. Leaving it untouched in a seperate high interest account and just taking the benefit of the interest will not avail you of a defence to this charge if you are discovered.
This is a dodgy one. My advice is if you are not of the criminal fraterinty alreasdy and willing to take a risk on joining it, then do something positive about it and return the money.
How would you feel if the tables were turned and someone kept something of yours that you had allowed them to have by mistake?
Blue chip? How much money goes to undeserving boardroom members and shareholders? If it were a family run biz then l'd own up sharpish, but its NOT! Yes there is such a thing as victimless crime, ignore all the good citizens telling you to give it back, they're just jealous
Play dumb, assume it was a profit share...more commission than you expected..bonus.. yadda yadda, give it back if discovered. Don't spend it for a while unless you can afford to give it back with less than one months notice. Unless you actually refuse to return the money you wont end up with a record. It would never get that far.
Play dumb, assume it was a profit share...more commission than you expected..bonus.. yadda yadda, give it back if discovered. Don't spend it for a while unless you can afford to give it back with less than one months notice. Unless you actually refuse to return the money you wont end up with a record. It would never get that far.
0ooh, I couldn't have guessed people would be so divided.
My decision is this:
I'm keeping quiet about it and putting it somewhere safe for a year. My reasoning is I've no moral objection to comiting a crime no one really suffers from if I gain from it. The only balance I have to mentally do is between the potential gain, the chances of being caught and the reprecussions if tis happens.
The best case is: I end up £2k up and have a very nice holiday next year.
The worst is: they cotton on, ask for it back NOW and are suspicious that I could have never noticed I'd been overpaid. (We're not talking £100k here - £2k is an amount I can claim to have overlooked).
- I'm 100% confident nothing worse than this would happen - although I appreciate the law allows for it.
What I actually think will happen is no one will ever know as it's only on one pay slip and the payments were carried out in 2 different ways (BACS and CHAPS). I also expect to leave the company (and London) in the next year and move back up north. If this happens before they notice I don't think they'd even bother to look into it.
Thanks for your thoughts.
My decision is this:
I'm keeping quiet about it and putting it somewhere safe for a year. My reasoning is I've no moral objection to comiting a crime no one really suffers from if I gain from it. The only balance I have to mentally do is between the potential gain, the chances of being caught and the reprecussions if tis happens.
The best case is: I end up £2k up and have a very nice holiday next year.
The worst is: they cotton on, ask for it back NOW and are suspicious that I could have never noticed I'd been overpaid. (We're not talking £100k here - £2k is an amount I can claim to have overlooked).
- I'm 100% confident nothing worse than this would happen - although I appreciate the law allows for it.
What I actually think will happen is no one will ever know as it's only on one pay slip and the payments were carried out in 2 different ways (BACS and CHAPS). I also expect to leave the company (and London) in the next year and move back up north. If this happens before they notice I don't think they'd even bother to look into it.
Thanks for your thoughts.
I am an internal auditor for a very large blue chip company.
We're risk based auditors, but we still do look at things like payroll. If your present internal controls haven't picked up on this within a month to six weeks then they are very unlikley to do so, especially if your payroll runs into millions like ours does.
However...
If you have people like me in your organisation, we may catch you! First of all we'll identify what loophole allowed this to happen and then check to see whether anything slipped through it. Once you know exactly where the problem is you can filter huge amounts of data to find out if it ever happened. And then we'll get you...
The good news is that this does happen and organisations are usually pretty sensible about it. We would be very 'disappointed' that you didn't declare it, especially if you are in a position of trust, but would expect repayment. I doubt we'd fire you, or conduct a criminal investigation!!! But it would blot your copy book so to speak.
We're risk based auditors, but we still do look at things like payroll. If your present internal controls haven't picked up on this within a month to six weeks then they are very unlikley to do so, especially if your payroll runs into millions like ours does.
However...
If you have people like me in your organisation, we may catch you! First of all we'll identify what loophole allowed this to happen and then check to see whether anything slipped through it. Once you know exactly where the problem is you can filter huge amounts of data to find out if it ever happened. And then we'll get you...
The good news is that this does happen and organisations are usually pretty sensible about it. We would be very 'disappointed' that you didn't declare it, especially if you are in a position of trust, but would expect repayment. I doubt we'd fire you, or conduct a criminal investigation!!! But it would blot your copy book so to speak.
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