When should Mercedes pull out of F1?
Discussion
http://www.inautonews.com/jackie-stewart-tells-mer...
Everyone's favourite reticent F1 champion reckons Merc should quit while they're ahead and do a Ford DFV. Good idea? When I think of Renault, I think of Williams crushing everyone in the 90's more than I think of Alonso, though that might be an age thing. IIRC, Renault pulled out of the V10 era because they felt they never got any press except when they didn't win. Though Merc got some good press during the McLaren years.
With the cyclical nature of F1 though, the decline will come eventually. Would Merc be better served by pulling out as legends at the end of the (presumably) First Hybrid era as opposed to suffering the indignity of Ferrari since the Schumacher era?
Everyone's favourite reticent F1 champion reckons Merc should quit while they're ahead and do a Ford DFV. Good idea? When I think of Renault, I think of Williams crushing everyone in the 90's more than I think of Alonso, though that might be an age thing. IIRC, Renault pulled out of the V10 era because they felt they never got any press except when they didn't win. Though Merc got some good press during the McLaren years.
With the cyclical nature of F1 though, the decline will come eventually. Would Merc be better served by pulling out as legends at the end of the (presumably) First Hybrid era as opposed to suffering the indignity of Ferrari since the Schumacher era?
Edited by glazbagun on Friday 15th April 00:17
I may be wrong, but with the constructor's championship winnings and sales of the engine a lot of Mercedes' year will be covered won't it? Do they even have to spend to race?
I always thought that was why Red Bull hung around - once they got to winning ways it was profitable, or at least cost neutral. They started complaining the moment the championship monies stopped flowing and the operation started to cost Red Bull.
I always thought that was why Red Bull hung around - once they got to winning ways it was profitable, or at least cost neutral. They started complaining the moment the championship monies stopped flowing and the operation started to cost Red Bull.
Jackie raises an interesting point because from Mercedes' perspective they could now just have teams scrapping over their supply their well-proven superior PUs and continue to gain most of the same recognition in powering other teams to victory. However I hope they stay, it's great to have the grid back up to 22 cars and I enjoy hearing from Toto and Lauda.
Jasandjules said:
I hope they remain for a while at least and can use some of the F1 developments in their road cars.
Dreaming, sorry.F1 technology is completely unaffordable, even in small production road cars. Driving round a circuit where the same things are repeated lap after lap is completely different from driving between A&B in variable traffic conditions. Race engines are developed around full throttle conditions, road cars have to meet pollution regulations.
rdjohn said:
Jasandjules said:
I hope they remain for a while at least and can use some of the F1 developments in their road cars.
Dreaming, sorry.F1 technology is completely unaffordable, even in small production road cars. Driving round a circuit where the same things are repeated lap after lap is completely different from driving between A&B in variable traffic conditions. Race engines are developed around full throttle conditions, road cars have to meet pollution regulations.
I'm pretty sure you're both wrong on that but I can't be arsed to research...
Off the top of my head- possible F1 advances which have ended up on road cars;
Monocoque construction
Composite construction
Intelligent active suspension
Upper body downforce / aero
Pneumatic poppet valves
Some types of multiple clutch gearboxes
Electronically adjustable diff
I read on here that Williams F1 had already sold some KERS technology?
Only a matter of time before thermal and kinetic energy recovery makes it onto more cars, albeit likely to be stored in a battery and used for engine- off running.
Off the top of my head- possible F1 advances which have ended up on road cars;
Monocoque construction
Composite construction
Intelligent active suspension
Upper body downforce / aero
Pneumatic poppet valves
Some types of multiple clutch gearboxes
Electronically adjustable diff
I read on here that Williams F1 had already sold some KERS technology?
Only a matter of time before thermal and kinetic energy recovery makes it onto more cars, albeit likely to be stored in a battery and used for engine- off running.
I doubt Mercedes are happy with the perception that they are cleaning up the Championships with no competition from other teams. No shame in getting beaten by a name like Ferrari.
It's why I have a lot more respect for teams like Williams, Ferrari and McLaren who do stick around in tough times. If Mercedes are scared that they'll get beaten and withdraw, then they're no worser than another soft drink company who was derided very much by our current WDC for this very reason.
It's why I have a lot more respect for teams like Williams, Ferrari and McLaren who do stick around in tough times. If Mercedes are scared that they'll get beaten and withdraw, then they're no worser than another soft drink company who was derided very much by our current WDC for this very reason.
HustleRussell said:
I'm pretty sure you're both wrong on that but I can't be arsed to research...
Off the top of my head- possible F1 advances which have ended up on road cars;
Monocoque construction
Composite construction
Intelligent active suspension
Upper body downforce / aero
Pneumatic poppet valves
Some types of multiple clutch gearboxes
Electronically adjustable diff
I read on here that Williams F1 had already sold some KERS technology?
Only a matter of time before thermal and kinetic energy recovery makes it onto more cars, albeit likely to be stored in a battery and used for engine- off running.
Whilst acknowledging that it's an incomplete list, I'd say that's a tiny amount of things. And how many of them have a direct link to a works F1 team? How many road cars, for instance, use the engine as a stressed member? Toyota and Telsa are the pioneers of road car Hybrid/Electric tech and neither have F1 teams. BMW's diesels and efficient dynamics package have been class leading and unrelated to F1.Off the top of my head- possible F1 advances which have ended up on road cars;
Monocoque construction
Composite construction
Intelligent active suspension
Upper body downforce / aero
Pneumatic poppet valves
Some types of multiple clutch gearboxes
Electronically adjustable diff
I read on here that Williams F1 had already sold some KERS technology?
Only a matter of time before thermal and kinetic energy recovery makes it onto more cars, albeit likely to be stored in a battery and used for engine- off running.
F1 is like the timing competitions Swiss watchmakers used to enter in the pre-Quartz era. Yes, they involve the best watchmakers and the best machining practices and the best QC, etc. But the required methods and end goal are so different to volume production as to be a different world. F1 is a bunch of very talented people in a very expensive shed/machine shop.
EagleMoto4-2 said:
Look how many road cars now sport shift paddles behind their steering wheels. Its taken rather a long time to appear from their inception on the 1989 Ferrari F1 car, but that is one major visible thing that has filtered down.
But look at the ones we have- VAG one's are great, but VW has never been in F1. Renualt have been multiple F1 champions, but their gearboxes aren't praised. The ZF_8HP gearbox gets rave reviews, but is used in everything from the 1-Series (no F1 team) to the Range Rover (no F1 team). The benefit Mercedes get from F1 is the same that their sponsors get- mental association with a dominant racing team and an aura of success, competition and invincibility that their marketing teams can utilize.
I could well see the 'motorised turbo' making it into hybrid road cars.
Use the battery system to achieve optimum turbo RPM at low revs, then skim off excess energy to replace what was used when the turbo would normally have dumped energy using the waste gate.
Smooth power curves, no turbo lag (whilst better there is still lag in modern turbo cars) and another way of integrating hybrid technology and improving efficiency.
Use the battery system to achieve optimum turbo RPM at low revs, then skim off excess energy to replace what was used when the turbo would normally have dumped energy using the waste gate.
Smooth power curves, no turbo lag (whilst better there is still lag in modern turbo cars) and another way of integrating hybrid technology and improving efficiency.
HustleRussell said:
I'm pretty sure you're both wrong on that but I can't be arsed to research...
Off the top of my head- possible F1 advances which have ended up on road cars;
Monocoque construction. CITROEN TRACTION
Composite construction. AIROSPACE INDUSTRY
Intelligent active suspension CITROEN
Upper body downforce / aero. AIROSPACE INDUSTRY
Pneumatic poppet valves. YET TO BE APPLIED IN MERCEDES ROAD CARS
Some types of multiple clutch gearboxes. 1930s RILEY HAD PRE-SELECT GEARS
Electronically adjustable diff. YET TO BE APPLIED IN MERCEDES ROAD CARS
I read on here that Williams F1 had already sold some KERS technology? BECAUSE THEIRS DID NOT WORK IN F1, BUT FINE FOR PORSCHE IN WEC AND LONDON BUSES
Only a matter of time before thermal and kinetic energy recovery makes it onto more cars, albeit likely to be stored in a battery and used for engine- off running. ELECTRIC SUPERCHARGERS HAVE BEEN ARROUND A LONG TIME. THE TYPE USED IN F1 WILL NEVER TRICKLE DOWN TO ROAD CARS -WAY TOO EXPENSIVE
ELECTRONS ARE THE FUTURE, HYBRIDS ARE AN INTERIM SOLUTIONS FOR THE LIKES OF FERRARI AND AMG, THEY MAKE NO SENSE AT ALL IN CLIOS AND CIVICS. THE PRIUS IS ABOUT WHAT CAN BE AFFORDED IN BASIC CAR, BUT CURRENTLY THEIR MPG CAN BE MATCHED BY THE BEST DIESELS - BUT NOT THEIR EMMISSIONS. THESE REGULATIONS ARE WHAT WILL DRIVE CHANGE AND NOT F1 RACE TECHNOLOGY.
The statement was about bringing Mercedes F1 technology to Mercedes road cars. My answer is a big fat ZEROOff the top of my head- possible F1 advances which have ended up on road cars;
Monocoque construction. CITROEN TRACTION
Composite construction. AIROSPACE INDUSTRY
Intelligent active suspension CITROEN
Upper body downforce / aero. AIROSPACE INDUSTRY
Pneumatic poppet valves. YET TO BE APPLIED IN MERCEDES ROAD CARS
Some types of multiple clutch gearboxes. 1930s RILEY HAD PRE-SELECT GEARS
Electronically adjustable diff. YET TO BE APPLIED IN MERCEDES ROAD CARS
I read on here that Williams F1 had already sold some KERS technology? BECAUSE THEIRS DID NOT WORK IN F1, BUT FINE FOR PORSCHE IN WEC AND LONDON BUSES
Only a matter of time before thermal and kinetic energy recovery makes it onto more cars, albeit likely to be stored in a battery and used for engine- off running. ELECTRIC SUPERCHARGERS HAVE BEEN ARROUND A LONG TIME. THE TYPE USED IN F1 WILL NEVER TRICKLE DOWN TO ROAD CARS -WAY TOO EXPENSIVE
ELECTRONS ARE THE FUTURE, HYBRIDS ARE AN INTERIM SOLUTIONS FOR THE LIKES OF FERRARI AND AMG, THEY MAKE NO SENSE AT ALL IN CLIOS AND CIVICS. THE PRIUS IS ABOUT WHAT CAN BE AFFORDED IN BASIC CAR, BUT CURRENTLY THEIR MPG CAN BE MATCHED BY THE BEST DIESELS - BUT NOT THEIR EMMISSIONS. THESE REGULATIONS ARE WHAT WILL DRIVE CHANGE AND NOT F1 RACE TECHNOLOGY.
Skodasupercar said:
I could well see the 'motorised turbo' making it into hybrid road cars.
Use the battery system to achieve optimum turbo RPM at low revs, then skim off excess energy to replace what was used when the turbo would normally have dumped energy using the waste gate.
Smooth power curves, no turbo lag (whilst better there is still lag in modern turbo cars) and another way of integrating hybrid technology and improving efficiency.
Is that not what the P1 does?Use the battery system to achieve optimum turbo RPM at low revs, then skim off excess energy to replace what was used when the turbo would normally have dumped energy using the waste gate.
Smooth power curves, no turbo lag (whilst better there is still lag in modern turbo cars) and another way of integrating hybrid technology and improving efficiency.
Skodasupercar said:
I could well see the 'motorised turbo' making it into hybrid road cars.
Use the battery system to achieve optimum turbo RPM at low revs, then skim off excess energy to replace what was used when the turbo would normally have dumped energy using the waste gate.
Smooth power curves, no turbo lag (whilst better there is still lag in modern turbo cars) and another way of integrating hybrid technology and improving efficiency.
The technology already exists in VOLVO Penta marine engines and I think Mack trucks. Pieburg will introduce theirs for road cars next year. The problem with this engine formula was that it was written arround known technologies. Use the battery system to achieve optimum turbo RPM at low revs, then skim off excess energy to replace what was used when the turbo would normally have dumped energy using the waste gate.
Smooth power curves, no turbo lag (whilst better there is still lag in modern turbo cars) and another way of integrating hybrid technology and improving efficiency.
In the FIAs defence clear-blue-sky design was ruled out on the grounds of cost. So they blew the same budget on this cul-de-sac thinking instead.
Does it make Greens think F1 is environmentally friendly? Absolutely not, the goal post has moved from 5mpg to 7.5mpg at enormous cost to both the competitors and the spectacle.
The engines are immensely clever in execution, but worthless in terms of saving the planet.
HardtopManual said:
Skodasupercar said:
I could well see the 'motorised turbo' making it into hybrid road cars.
Use the battery system to achieve optimum turbo RPM at low revs, then skim off excess energy to replace what was used when the turbo would normally have dumped energy using the waste gate.
Smooth power curves, no turbo lag (whilst better there is still lag in modern turbo cars) and another way of integrating hybrid technology and improving efficiency.
Is that not what the P1 does?Use the battery system to achieve optimum turbo RPM at low revs, then skim off excess energy to replace what was used when the turbo would normally have dumped energy using the waste gate.
Smooth power curves, no turbo lag (whilst better there is still lag in modern turbo cars) and another way of integrating hybrid technology and improving efficiency.
The electric motor drives the crank, "torque fill" is applied until the turbos are boosting, driven from the exhaust.
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