Discussion
Just thinking about Lewis and Seb this morning.
Earlier in their F1 careers it appeared that Vettel was the more level headed of the two. Lewis had that brilliant debut season, but for the next few seasons (even including his 2008 championship season) he seemed a little prone to rash decisions and trying to win when a win wasn't always to be had. Since he went to Mercedes though he has matured immensely and now he seems to know when to push and when not to. At the weekend he knew holding Verstappen off wasn't on the cards and that he needed to preserve his tyres and engine so settled for trying for second from the 4th lap onwards. He would not have done that 5 years ago!
Seb on the other hand seems to have gone the other way. Those calm assured drives of the initial part of his career at RB (and TR) seem a thing of the past. Even when he has a great race his hot headedness seems to be just around the corner. He has the best all round car this year and I would have expected RB Seb to have won this championship at a canter yet through a series of errors (not always of his own making) he is staring down the end of a 34 point deficit to Hamilton who seems overall to be a very cool customer this season especially!
I also think he's lucky in that it could be worse for him had be got properly reprimanded about his driving in Baku.
If he can calm down and get a grip I think the Seb of old still stands a chance in these last 5 races, but he's just not like that these days... he will do something crazy for sure is my gut feeling.
Not really criticising either of them as I would be no use whatsoever in the situations they end up in, but it is interesting how they seem to have swapped roles. I know many will say it's easy to be cool in the car of the field, but it's more nuanced than that and anyway Seb is in the class of the field this year in many ways.
Earlier in their F1 careers it appeared that Vettel was the more level headed of the two. Lewis had that brilliant debut season, but for the next few seasons (even including his 2008 championship season) he seemed a little prone to rash decisions and trying to win when a win wasn't always to be had. Since he went to Mercedes though he has matured immensely and now he seems to know when to push and when not to. At the weekend he knew holding Verstappen off wasn't on the cards and that he needed to preserve his tyres and engine so settled for trying for second from the 4th lap onwards. He would not have done that 5 years ago!
Seb on the other hand seems to have gone the other way. Those calm assured drives of the initial part of his career at RB (and TR) seem a thing of the past. Even when he has a great race his hot headedness seems to be just around the corner. He has the best all round car this year and I would have expected RB Seb to have won this championship at a canter yet through a series of errors (not always of his own making) he is staring down the end of a 34 point deficit to Hamilton who seems overall to be a very cool customer this season especially!
I also think he's lucky in that it could be worse for him had be got properly reprimanded about his driving in Baku.
If he can calm down and get a grip I think the Seb of old still stands a chance in these last 5 races, but he's just not like that these days... he will do something crazy for sure is my gut feeling.
Not really criticising either of them as I would be no use whatsoever in the situations they end up in, but it is interesting how they seem to have swapped roles. I know many will say it's easy to be cool in the car of the field, but it's more nuanced than that and anyway Seb is in the class of the field this year in many ways.
I agree, odd isn't it- Vettel seems to get rather arrogant when he is comfortable and successful within a team as we saw at Red Bull until 2013. 2014 took him down several pegs. While he was in the '15-'16 Ferrari underdog team he seemed highly motivated but also grateful for any opportunity to run at the front. The moment he was once again in a potential WDC position he seemed to revert to the arrogant Seb who can do no wrong.
Meanwhile, Hamilton has (despite his success) become cooler and cooler… juvenile social media habit and occasional odd remark aside.
Meanwhile, Hamilton has (despite his success) become cooler and cooler… juvenile social media habit and occasional odd remark aside.
They are different characters. Lewis appears to court publicity, Seb the opposite.
I think Lewis has matured well and is probably now at his peak. No reason to think he cannot keep performing at this level for several more years.
Seb seems to have a blind spot in regard to criticism/self criticism. I suggest this is not so unusual for anyone who performs at the very top level of their sport or professional.
The most successfull people are not always the nicest.
I think Lewis has matured well and is probably now at his peak. No reason to think he cannot keep performing at this level for several more years.
Seb seems to have a blind spot in regard to criticism/self criticism. I suggest this is not so unusual for anyone who performs at the very top level of their sport or professional.
The most successfull people are not always the nicest.
It is a tragedy that Hamilton has matured. I enjoyed watching him drive the wheels off, all too literally sometimes, the uncompetitive McLaren. Who can forget the feeling that he was going to go for an overtake despite the laws of physics. His qually laps were awe-inspiring; right on the limit, and beyond.
It's a funny word, maturity. I was on a ferry in Malta when a group from Saga came up the gangplank. It was chaos. Funny though. If that's mature, I'll stick with being illogical.
Maturity is vastly overrated.
It's a funny word, maturity. I was on a ferry in Malta when a group from Saga came up the gangplank. It was chaos. Funny though. If that's mature, I'll stick with being illogical.
Maturity is vastly overrated.
I think Lewis probably learned a lot from Rosberg and his approach last season too.
In fact I wouldn't be at all surprised if he doesn't quit if he wins the title this year. He will have more world championships than his idol Senna and has plenty of other interests he may wish to devote more time to.
In fact I wouldn't be at all surprised if he doesn't quit if he wins the title this year. He will have more world championships than his idol Senna and has plenty of other interests he may wish to devote more time to.
85Carrera said:
I think Lewis probably learned a lot from Rosberg and his approach last season too.
In fact I wouldn't be at all surprised if he doesn't quit if he wins the title this year. He will have more world championships than his idol Senna and has plenty of other interests he may wish to devote more time to.
He wants to be remembered as a great and wants to win championships in 3 teams. So a move at some point to red bull or ferrari would happen at some point.In fact I wouldn't be at all surprised if he doesn't quit if he wins the title this year. He will have more world championships than his idol Senna and has plenty of other interests he may wish to devote more time to.
I suspect Fingers convinced himself F1 was easy and/or he was the wonder kid after his first few years. He made his debut in 2007, in a half decent car and scored points. Then won a race in his first full season with Toro Rosso, then challenged for a title with Red Bull in 2009 and then went on to win 4 titles, in what was more often than not comfortably the best car on the grid. Since then, he has had a bit of a rude awaken I think.
Yes, Hamilton nearly won the title in his first season and did in his second. But he was then brought straight back to reality with the hound that was the '09 McLaren.
Yes, Hamilton nearly won the title in his first season and did in his second. But he was then brought straight back to reality with the hound that was the '09 McLaren.
In his 1st WDC year, Seb was labelled a crash kid by the McLaren TP. Still very raw, but the speed was there... I gather Button saw Vettel as the main threat to his WDC early on in 2009. RBR were also in their first proper Championship fight in 2010 which caused a lot of friction between team mates that were difficult to control and that caused incidents.... There was a big transformation in 2011, and that continued in 2012, culminating in that fantastic run of 9 straight wins in the back end of 2013.
Of course, there was that year as team mate of Ricciardo, had lots of bad reliability, but you never quite knew if he'd lost interest or being genuinely beaten. Probably the latter. He did some amazing things in that Ferrari in 2015. I can't quite put my finger (pun intended) on what has happened the last couple of years...the early Seb still pops in every now and again.
Of course, there was that year as team mate of Ricciardo, had lots of bad reliability, but you never quite knew if he'd lost interest or being genuinely beaten. Probably the latter. He did some amazing things in that Ferrari in 2015. I can't quite put my finger (pun intended) on what has happened the last couple of years...the early Seb still pops in every now and again.
cb1965 said:
At the weekend he knew holding Verstappen off wasn't on the cards and that he needed to preserve his tyres and engine so settled for trying for second from the 4th lap onwards. He would not have done that 5 years ago!
That is a big shame. It was the best thing about him in his early days. You don't watch Lewis Hamilton for him to settle for 2nd. I'm sorry to say that, and I'd liked that about him when he drove for McLaren (the team I support), with Jenson being the more measured racer alongside.Edited by Dr Z on Tuesday 3rd October 21:09
One thing I loved watching Lewis was that regardless of if he was first or last, he was always involved in the action, something was always going on with him in the middle of it.
It's all toned down now... Which is a shame. He has had a list of GREAT F1 teammates!, maybe picking up tips, traits from fellow past team mates is what's made him the driver he is today?
How can you not learn, pickup things to improve your own skills from drivers like Fernando?, Jenson? Nico?
Has any former/current F1 champion had such a strong list of teammates that Lewis has has throughout his career? (in their prime)...
Even if there is, no doubt Lewis would be up there.
It's all toned down now... Which is a shame. He has had a list of GREAT F1 teammates!, maybe picking up tips, traits from fellow past team mates is what's made him the driver he is today?
How can you not learn, pickup things to improve your own skills from drivers like Fernando?, Jenson? Nico?
Has any former/current F1 champion had such a strong list of teammates that Lewis has has throughout his career? (in their prime)...
Even if there is, no doubt Lewis would be up there.
I've long thought it possible to group drivers into F1 thus:
The Terminally Awful
The Generally Good
The Exceptionally Brilliant
The Elite
Drawing reference from the many journalist sources from within F1, you have to conclude that the general opinion is that Vettel is wedged firmly in the upper group of the Exceptionally Brilliant whilst Hamilton occupies a secure position amongst the Elite.
I remember watching Vettel race in Euro F3 at a support race for DTM at Brands in 2006m (pics below). He was then touted as a successor to Schumacher so I took extra notice and to be honest, I didn't really see anything particularly special; inconsistent lines into Druids, regular locking up of wheels and generally no better or worse than most of the mid field drivers. Very different to Hamilton in the junior formulae when he more often than not completely wiped the floor, winning by margins generally not though possible in single-make series.
The Terminally Awful
The Generally Good
The Exceptionally Brilliant
The Elite
Drawing reference from the many journalist sources from within F1, you have to conclude that the general opinion is that Vettel is wedged firmly in the upper group of the Exceptionally Brilliant whilst Hamilton occupies a secure position amongst the Elite.
I remember watching Vettel race in Euro F3 at a support race for DTM at Brands in 2006m (pics below). He was then touted as a successor to Schumacher so I took extra notice and to be honest, I didn't really see anything particularly special; inconsistent lines into Druids, regular locking up of wheels and generally no better or worse than most of the mid field drivers. Very different to Hamilton in the junior formulae when he more often than not completely wiped the floor, winning by margins generally not though possible in single-make series.
Derek Smith said:
It is a tragedy that Hamilton has matured. I enjoyed watching him drive the wheels off, all too literally sometimes, the uncompetitive McLaren. Who can forget the feeling that he was going to go for an overtake despite the laws of physics. His qually laps were awe-inspiring; right on the limit, and beyond.
It's a funny word, maturity. I was on a ferry in Malta when a group from Saga came up the gangplank. It was chaos. Funny though. If that's mature, I'll stick with being illogical.
Maturity is vastly overrated.
And immaturity is wasted on the young. It's a funny word, maturity. I was on a ferry in Malta when a group from Saga came up the gangplank. It was chaos. Funny though. If that's mature, I'll stick with being illogical.
Maturity is vastly overrated.
slipstream 1985 said:
He wants to be remembered as a great and wants to win championships in 3 teams. So a move at some point to red bull or ferrari would happen at some point.
I wasn't aware Lewis aspired to this, though I've often said in conversation that if I were him, I'd be after Fangio's record; 5 wins with 3 constructors. Then you can confidently say it was your driving skills that got you there rather than just a slick team and/or dominant car. I'm beginning to sense a little frustration coming from SV. It's more evident in his on-track behaviour than his demeanour in interviews.
And then there's Max.
Surely a WDC in the making if ever there was one.
Seb needs to beat a top class team mate before I'd consider him at the same level as Alonso or Lewis. Getting beaten by Danny Ric in their one season together did not reflect well on Seb. I suspect Max is quicker than Danny and more likely to win a title if they are in the same car, but Danny should still be winning titles if he can get the right car. Danny is the best driver that Vettel has come up against, and he lost, and Danny isn't the fastest driver on the grid as at least Max is provably faster than Danny.
What I'm not clear on is if Seb is like Michael in the way he can pull the team together and how Michael can help the team develop the car. I'm not sure Lewis is anything special in that area, feedback I saw was that the Merc's development was driven more by feedback from Rosberg than Lewis.
What I'm not clear on is if Seb is like Michael in the way he can pull the team together and how Michael can help the team develop the car. I'm not sure Lewis is anything special in that area, feedback I saw was that the Merc's development was driven more by feedback from Rosberg than Lewis.
I personally feel Lewis has matured due to having the best car on track since the new engines were produced.
When you have an advantage over the field with the best car your confidence will only increase race after race.
This is exactly the same with Vettel when he was at Red Bull winning Championships.
Vettel has been disappointing while at Ferrari. His temper tantrums and actions on track have been below par. Not what you would expect from a four time World Champion.
What will be interesting to see is if Mercedes do have issues with the car for the rest of this season and going into 2018 whether the calm and mature Lewis will hang around or if he too will start to become a "Vettel" when things are not going his way.
Time will tell but finally it is looking like Mercedes have some work to do in the coming months.
But Mercedes and Lewis must be delighted that Ferrari and Vettel seem intent on destroying their chances in 2017
When you have an advantage over the field with the best car your confidence will only increase race after race.
This is exactly the same with Vettel when he was at Red Bull winning Championships.
Vettel has been disappointing while at Ferrari. His temper tantrums and actions on track have been below par. Not what you would expect from a four time World Champion.
What will be interesting to see is if Mercedes do have issues with the car for the rest of this season and going into 2018 whether the calm and mature Lewis will hang around or if he too will start to become a "Vettel" when things are not going his way.
Time will tell but finally it is looking like Mercedes have some work to do in the coming months.
But Mercedes and Lewis must be delighted that Ferrari and Vettel seem intent on destroying their chances in 2017
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 4th October 11:31
tankplanker said:
Seb needs to beat a top class team mate before I'd consider him at the same level as Alonso or Lewis. Getting beaten by Danny Ric in their one season together did not reflect well on Seb. I suspect Max is quicker than Danny and more likely to win a title if they are in the same car, but Danny should still be winning titles if he can get the right car. Danny is the best driver that Vettel has come up against, and he lost, and Danny isn't the fastest driver on the grid as at least Max is provably faster than Danny.
What I'm not clear on is if Seb is like Michael in the way he can pull the team together and how Michael can help the team develop the car. I'm not sure Lewis is anything special in that area, feedback I saw was that the Merc's development was driven more by feedback from Rosberg than Lewis.
That's quite an astute observation.What I'm not clear on is if Seb is like Michael in the way he can pull the team together and how Michael can help the team develop the car. I'm not sure Lewis is anything special in that area, feedback I saw was that the Merc's development was driven more by feedback from Rosberg than Lewis.
Nigel Roebuck wrote an article a while back in which he drew reference to Vettel getting some 'coaching' from Schumacher in terms of forming a team around him and the only team that I think would tolerate this is Ferrari. If Vettel ever went to Mercedes, I don't envisage them giving him the same freedom and should Hamilton ever find himself at Ferrari (and I think it highly likely he will at some stage), he'll be calling the shots as Vettel is at the moment and as Schumacher did in the past.
It is also worth noting that Red Bull always ran a 'one-car' team when Vettel was there, he did not have to worry about the other driver as competition. The record books would likely be subtly different if that was not the case. Vettel is also only blindingly fast in a car that really suits him, he is not as adaptable as some other drivers. The year with Ricciardo at RB proves that point.
Leroy902 said:
One thing I loved watching Lewis was that regardless of if he was first or last, he was always involved in the action, something was always going on with him in the middle of it.
It's all toned down now... Which is a shame. He has had a list of GREAT F1 teammates!, maybe picking up tips, traits from fellow past team mates is what's made him the driver he is today?
How can you not learn, pickup things to improve your own skills from drivers like Fernando?, Jenson? Nico?
Has any former/current F1 champion had such a strong list of teammates that Lewis has has throughout his career? (in their prime)...
Even if there is, no doubt Lewis would be up there.
It's all toned down now... Which is a shame. He has had a list of GREAT F1 teammates!, maybe picking up tips, traits from fellow past team mates is what's made him the driver he is today?
How can you not learn, pickup things to improve your own skills from drivers like Fernando?, Jenson? Nico?
Has any former/current F1 champion had such a strong list of teammates that Lewis has has throughout his career? (in their prime)...
Even if there is, no doubt Lewis would be up there.
Captain blackadder said:
Oxford Cambridge...Hull
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