Alonso to leave Ferrari?
Discussion
toppstuff said:
I am not sure that is quite right. For your theory to work we would also need to see Seb elevate a bad or average car into a good result. We have seen Alonso do that. Hamilton too. We haven't seen much evidence of that yet from Seb, which is why the poor chap still needs to convince some people that he is truly is as good as we suspect he may be.
I thought he did precisely that with Toro Rosso in his first year...ash73 said:
toppstuff said:
we would also need to see Seb elevate a bad or average car into a good result
He won a race in a Toro Rosso ffsI'm not knocking him for gods sake, just offering some perspective.
ash73 said:
toppstuff said:
The race win was rather an outlier though
What about Fuji 07 where he was running third until the incident behind the safety car? And Brazil 08 where Seb passed Lewis in the closing stages and almost cost him the WDC? Both in a TR.The 07 and 08 TR was a good car. I think I was talking about the notion of if Seb has ever had to deal with a not-so-good car and how some people feel that he hasn't had the same car challenges as, say, Alonso or Hamilton.
There have been periods when both Ferrari and McLaren have had very difficult cars. Maybe that isn't true of Seb's cars.
Hell, just stick him in a Caterham and see what happens in the last race of the season ! That should sort it.
ash73 said:
How did Liuzzi, Bourdais and Scott Speed get on in the same car...?
At the 2008 Italian Grand Prix, Bourdais qualified fourth, behind Vettel's pole position but, given the freak conditions, not bad.He could not select first gear on the grid so stalled and had to start a lap down. We'll never know how he would have got on in that race relative to Vettel.
Bourdais performed reasonably consistently that year - he was on for a podium in 3rd in Belgium that year, ahead of Vettel, but was overtaken along with Vettel on the final lap when the heavens opened and he was on the wrong tyre.
Vettel's first year with Toro Rosso was 2007, but he only competed from Hungary onwards, replacing Scott Speed. He was beaten in every race by Vitantonio Liuzzi, apart from the Chinese GP, when it rained and he finished 4th to Liuzzi's 6th.
IINM, these Toro Rosso cars were heavily influenced by the main Red Bull team as this was an era when data sharing was more widely permitted. The Toro Rosso was essentially a clone of the Red Bull, with a different engine.
A lot of people point to Vettel's 2008 Italian GP win as evidence of his greatness. Indeed, Helmut Marko has indicated that the standard for TR drivers is to win a race in the light of Vettel's achievement that year.
He had to bring it home and it was a very good performance, but one should remember that a lot of things were in his favour (Weather, Hamilton & Raikkonen qualifying poorly, etc)
toppstuff said:
ash73 said:
toppstuff said:
The race win was rather an outlier though
What about Fuji 07 where he was running third until the incident behind the safety car? And Brazil 08 where Seb passed Lewis in the closing stages and almost cost him the WDC? Both in a TR.The 07 and 08 TR was a good car. I think I was talking about the notion of if Seb has ever had to deal with a not-so-good car and how some people feel that he hasn't had the same car challenges as, say, Alonso or Hamilton.
There have been periods when both Ferrari and McLaren have had very difficult cars. Maybe that isn't true of Seb's cars.
Hell, just stick him in a Caterham and see what happens in the last race of the season ! That should sort it.
Vettel has been lucky with cars too.
Alonso not so much. Alonso has only had a championship-capable car in 4 seasons (2005, 2006, 2007, 2010) and never had a dominant car.
ash73 said:
Muzzer79 said:
He was beaten in every race by Vitantonio Liuzzi, apart from the Chinese GP, when it rained and he finished 4th to Liuzzi's 6th.
"Beaten in every race" is stretching it; it was 2-1 excluding DNFs. Are we ducking Fuji? Vettel was on for a podium, or better, until Lewis' antics behind the safety car. Liuzzi finished 80 sec behind the leader.So now we know Seb's detractors live in a special universe where the Toro Rosso was as good as any car on the grid including the 07/08 McLaren
IIRC, Vettel ploughed into the back of Mark Webber in Fuji under the safety car, prompting the wrath of Webber, proclaiming words to the effect of"bloody kids allowed in F1 before they know what they're doing"
OK, maybe 'beaten in every race' is a little strong, but he by no means humiliated Liuzzi.
Who said anything about the STR being as good as the McLaren? I was comparing him to his team-mates and highlighting that the STR was by no means a dog.
I am not a Vettel "detractor" I think the boy is good - you don't get to be a 4 time champion without being good.
I just think that one has to acknowledge his vastly superior equipment, much like one has to with Mansell in '92, arguably with Hill in '96 and with Schumacher in (some of) the 2000s.
Catatafish said:
gherkins said:
How did Paul di Resta get on in the same car as Vettel in F3?
I am guessing that PDR was faster than Vettel in equal machinery?2006 Formula 3 Euro Series.
Both driving for ASM Formule 3, Di Resta beat Vettel 86 points to 75 in the same equipment, winning 5 races to Vettel's 4
Di resta qualified on pole 5 times, to Vettel's 1.
Have a read of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Formula_3_Euro_S...
CraigyMc said:
Catatafish said:
gherkins said:
How did Paul di Resta get on in the same car as Vettel in F3?
I am guessing that PDR was faster than Vettel in equal machinery?2006 Formula 3 Euro Series.
Both driving for ASM Formule 3, Di Resta beat Vettel 86 points to 75 in the same equipment, winning 5 races to Vettel's 4
Di resta qualified on pole 5 times, to Vettel's 1.
Have a read of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Formula_3_Euro_S...
Muzzer79 said:
I am not a Vettel "detractor" I think the boy is good - you don't get to be a 4 time champion without being good.
I just think that one has to acknowledge his vastly superior equipment, much like one has to with Mansell in '92, arguably with Hill in '96 and with Schumacher in (some of) the 2000s.
My thoughts exactly. Couldn't put it better myself.I just think that one has to acknowledge his vastly superior equipment, much like one has to with Mansell in '92, arguably with Hill in '96 and with Schumacher in (some of) the 2000s.
ash73 said:
Muzzer79 said:
I just think that one has to acknowledge his vastly superior equipment, much like one has to with Mansell in '92, arguably with Hill in '96 and with Schumacher in (some of) the 2000s.
He's won a race in a midfield team; end of story. Part of being the best is getting into the right car at the right time, just as Fangio did. Does anyone criticse Jimmy Clark for only driving for Lotus when it was the class of the field?Until Sebastien also competes competitively in Touring Cars, Le Mans and NASCAR as well as GP's, comparing him to Jim Clark is meaningless.
Why do you think PDR so comprehensively outpaced Vettel in F3 then? Has Vettel magically found a secret pixie spell that enhances his gifts and puts a curse on PDR to make him worse?
Anyway, back on thread…
I've got a lot of time for Fred Alonso.
He is probably the best driver on the grid. If only because he has been in cars that have needed a demonstration of better-than-average skills to win the points he has. His being in mediocre cars, while still challenging for podiums and WDC's, rightly makes people wonder if he is the best.
Having said that, if he was in a RB he clearly could not do a better job than Sebastien Vettel - who is clearly putting in a pretty much perfect performance in that car.
It is because Alonso can show us he is good even when the car is not, that people rate him.
I've got a lot of time for Fred Alonso.
He is probably the best driver on the grid. If only because he has been in cars that have needed a demonstration of better-than-average skills to win the points he has. His being in mediocre cars, while still challenging for podiums and WDC's, rightly makes people wonder if he is the best.
Having said that, if he was in a RB he clearly could not do a better job than Sebastien Vettel - who is clearly putting in a pretty much perfect performance in that car.
It is because Alonso can show us he is good even when the car is not, that people rate him.
ash73 said:
Muzzer79 said:
I just think that one has to acknowledge his vastly superior equipment, much like one has to with Mansell in '92, arguably with Hill in '96 and with Schumacher in (some of) the 2000s.
He's won a race in a midfield team; end of story. And Johnny Herbert because of his win in Germany for Stewart-Ford in 1999?
Exactly - right place, right time, right circumstances.
ash73 said:
Part of being the best is getting into the right car at the right time, just as Fangio did. Does anyone criticse Jimmy Clark for only driving for Lotus when it was the class of the field?
You're absolutely right. Senna didn't get into a McLaren by accident, nor Stewart into a Tyrell, but it's how you win that defines greatness IMO, and these people were from a different, pre-aero, era when the driver was a more key factor.ash73 said:
toppstuff said:
Why do you think PDR so comprehensively outpaced Vettel in F3 then?
I don't think performance in junior formulae is a good indicator of likely performance in F1. It just gets them in the door. I said that at the time when di Resta got into F1 and everyone was raving about his F3/DTM record.Even the basic driving skills are different in terms of aero characteristics and power/grip, the longer races, setup and strategy etc, but there's also the pressure, mind games and other peripheral things they have to cope with.
Drivers develop in steps, it's not a linear process; same as anyone else learning a sport. Something clicked for Seb in 2008 and it got him a RBR drive, where there was little between him and Mark initially, but now he is on another level again.
Perhaps the best thing that could possibly happen for F1 is for RBR to have a mediocre car. A middle-of-the=pack car. A car more like RBR was in the Coulthard era. Then we will know if Seb has the gifts to lift things and we will be in a better position to compare him to Alonso.
Gassing Station | Formula 1 | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff