Is Jenson Button the best driver in F1?

[Mr_Thyroid]

Sandford said:

Button is the only driver to outscore all of his team mates over a season.

Only if you ignore his first two seasons when he was beaten by "Legends of F1" Ralf Schumacher and Giancarlo Fisichella.

[RYH64E]

Sandford said:

He is British and local so I might also be biased.

Local if you happen to live in Monaco I suppose, it's a shame that the British drivers don't feel sufficiently British to pay their taxes here.

[Vocal Minority]

Mr_Thyroid said:

Only if you ignore his first two seasons when he was beaten by "Legends of F1" Ralf Schumacher and Giancarlo Fisichella.

When he was a kid and a tool respectively

[rubystone]

Sandford said:

I am certain that if you put Button or Alonso in the same car as Hamilton they will both end the season ahead of Hamilton. Button has managed to do this throughout his F1 stint.

Even when stuck with a car that's consistantly 20-30mph slower than any other team on the grid in the last two years Button has probably been in the top 3 drivers again this year.

Can I ask what's the basis for you making both of those statements?

[RobM77]

rubystone said:

Sandford said:

I am certain that if you put Button or Alonso in the same car as Hamilton they will both end the season ahead of Hamilton. Button has managed to do this throughout his F1 stint.

Even when stuck with a car that's consistantly 20-30mph slower than any other team on the grid in the last two years Button has probably been in the top 3 drivers again this year.

Can I ask what's the basis for you making both of those statements?

It's probably worth looking a bit deeper at the stats for their three years together at Mclaren:

Qualifying
Faster qualifying time: Hamilton 44 / Button 14
Poles: Hamilton 9 / Button 1
Front rows: Hamilton: 23 / Button 9

Races
Wins: Hamilton 10 / Button 8
Podiums: Hamilton 22 / Button 25
Points finishes: Hamilton 45 / Button 47
DNFs: Hamilton 13 / Button 8
Best race result (inc DNFs): Hamilton 32 / Button 26
Ahead in two-car finish: Hamilton 24 / Button 13

Championship
Overall points: Hamilton 657 / Button 672
Seasons finished higher in standings: Hamilton 2 / Button 1
Highest championship placing: Hamilton 4th (2010, 2012) / Button 2nd (2011)

Data from: http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2012/11/hamilton-and...

We also need to consider which driver had more support at McLaren of course. I don't think the above shows that either driver is obviously better, but what it does show is that Button is indeed up there with the best of today's drivers. I'm not sure we can draw any conclusions beyond that though can we?

I think it's difficult to make a judgement in sport because there are so many factors affecting the outcome. This especially applies in motorsport, where a huge engineering team also contribute to victory. Unless someone is obviously a Rossi, Schumacher or Federer, comparisons are extremely tricky, if not impossible without in depth knowledge of circumstances. I personally would never dream of judging drivers (or any sports person) from my sofa.

[Norfolkit]

Sandford said:

Button is the only driver to outscore all of his team mates over a season.
)

No he isn't because he hasn't done it.

He finished behind Ralf Schumy in their one season together and finished behind Fisichella in their one season together.

[rubystone]

RobM77 said:

It's probably worth looking a bit deeper at the stats for their three years together at Mclaren:

Qualifying
Faster qualifying time: Hamilton 44 / Button 14
Poles: Hamilton 9 / Button 1
Front rows: Hamilton: 23 / Button 9

Races
Wins: Hamilton 10 / Button 8
Podiums: Hamilton 22 / Button 25
Points finishes: Hamilton 45 / Button 47
DNFs: Hamilton 13 / Button 8
Best race result (inc DNFs): Hamilton 32 / Button 26
Ahead in two-car finish: Hamilton 24 / Button 13

Championship
Overall points: Hamilton 657 / Button 672
Seasons finished higher in standings: Hamilton 2 / Button 1
Highest championship placing: Hamilton 4th (2010, 2012) / Button 2nd (2011)

Data from: http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2012/11/hamilton-and...

We also need to consider which driver had more support at McLaren of course. I don't think the above shows that either driver is obviously better, but what it does show is that Button is indeed up there with the best of today's drivers. I'm not sure we can draw any conclusions beyond that though can we?

I think it's difficult to make a judgement in sport because there are so many factors affecting the outcome. This especially applies in motorsport, where a huge engineering team also contribute to victory. Unless someone is obviously a Rossi, Schumacher or Federer, comparisons are extremely tricky, if not impossible without in depth knowledge of circumstances. I personally would never dream of judging drivers (or any sports person) from my sofa.

Sandford says he is certain. I'd like understand whet makes him so certain. Maybe it is indeed the statistics from his McLaren era v Hamilton which is what is generally put forward as supporting such a view. Or maybe he has some interesting inside information?

[RobM77]

Norfolkit said:

Sandford said:

Button is the only driver to outscore all of his team mates over a season.
)

No he isn't because he hasn't done it.

He finished behind Ralf Schumy in their one season together and finished behind Fisichella in their one season together.

And as you can see above, Hamilton finished ahead of Button in two out of their three seasons together. Button however scored more points than Hamilton over the whole three year stretch.

[BarbaricAvatar]

RobM77 said:

Norfolkit said:

Sandford said:

Button is the only driver to outscore all of his team mates over a season.
)

No he isn't because he hasn't done it.

He finished behind Ralf Schumy in their one season together and finished behind Fisichella in their one season together.

And as you can see above, Hamilton finished ahead of Button in two out of their three seasons together. Button however scored more points than Hamilton over the whole three year stretch.

Wins > Points

[thegreenhell]

BarbaricAvatar said:

Wins > Points

In what way? The WDC is decided on points, not wins. There have been many instances of drivers winning the championship despite having fewer wins in a season than their competitors.

I'm sure most people, drivers included, would prefer to win races rather than just accumulate points, but then they'd also prefer to win world titles rather than just win races.

[BarbaricAvatar]

thegreenhell said:

BarbaricAvatar said:

Wins > Points

In what way? The WDC is decided on points, not wins. There have been many instances of drivers winning the championship despite having fewer wins in a season than their competitors.

I'm sure most people, drivers included, would prefer to win races rather than just accumulate points, but then they'd also prefer to win world titles rather than just win races.

I was referring more to the Hamilton-Button comparison. I wrote a bit more about risk and reliability and then realised that it sounded like i was almost defending Maldonado or Ericsson's positions. So i deleted it.

[London424]

thegreenhell said:

BarbaricAvatar said:

Wins > Points

In what way? The WDC is decided on points, not wins. There have been many instances of drivers winning the championship despite having fewer wins in a season than their competitors.

I'm sure most people, drivers included, would prefer to win races rather than just accumulate points, but then they'd also prefer to win world titles rather than just win races.

In the way that unless you win the title having lots of points is a bit rubbish. Not like when you retire you'll sit at home looking at your points collection is it?

Drivers are judged by
Championships
Wins
Pole positions
Podium finishes

Anything else is just fluff.

[37chevy]

RYH64E said:

Local if you happen to live in Monaco I suppose, it's a shame that the British drivers don't feel sufficiently British to pay their taxes here.

I've never understood this! Why in the hell would you pay taxes in a country that you don't live or work in?!

If you emigrated to another country and lived/worked there would you pay taxes in the uk and your country of residence? Of course you wouldn't!

[37chevy]

Vocal Minority said:

When he was a kid and a tool respectively

Same excuse Hamilton made when he almost won the championship in his rookie season?

[Scuffers]

RYH64E said:

Sandford said:

He is British and local so I might also be biased.

Local if you happen to live in Monaco I suppose, it's a shame that the British drivers don't feel sufficiently British to pay their taxes here.

I was watching a re-run on the 2007 season, and in an interview with Lewis (in his first year) he was already looking to leave the UK as he simply could not escape the press intrusions into his life.

Also, if in your chosen carrier, you effectively only had say <10 years, why the hell would you NOT want to be as tax efficient as possible when you consider you will be retiring at <30?

[BarbaricAvatar]

37chevy said:

RYH64E said:

Local if you happen to live in Monaco I suppose, it's a shame that the British drivers don't feel sufficiently British to pay their taxes here.

I've never understood this! Why in the hell would you pay taxes in a country that you don't live or work in?!

If you emigrated to another country and lived/worked there would you pay taxes in the uk and your country of residence? Of course you wouldn't!

Because there's no income tax in Monaco (minimal research). It may cost more to move there but then you get to keep a lot more of your money. No idea if it's the same for Switzerland, though i suspect drivers move there because there's less chance of being recognised/bothered.
I remember when Hamilton came in he promised to stay in the UK, but eventually the constant stream of "well-wishers" turning up on his family's doorstep got too much and getting out was the only course of action.

Besides, if i was rich i wouldn't want to be paying a government who gives money to the BBC; an organisation that was a haven for sexual assault in the 70's and 80's. Not to mention the total screw that they've directed at F1; first by subletting their exclusive contract to pay-TV (and getting away with it), then bailing out of their contract 1 year early (and getting away with it).
We wouldn't HAVE this "only 10 races live" bks if the BBC were an honourable company. Swindlers, cheats and liars.

• More anti-Beeb ranting removed*

[BoredNerd]

RobM77 said:

We also need to consider which driver had more support at McLaren of course. I don't think the above shows that either driver is obviously better, but what it does show is that Button is indeed up there with the best of today's drivers. I'm not sure we can draw any conclusions beyond that though can we?

I think it's difficult to make a judgement in sport because there are so many factors affecting the outcome. This especially applies in motorsport, where a huge engineering team also contribute to victory. Unless someone is obviously a Rossi, Schumacher or Federer, comparisons are extremely tricky, if not impossible without in depth knowledge of circumstances. I personally would never dream of judging drivers (or any sports person) from my sofa.

This. x1000.

[RobM77]

BoredNerd said:

RobM77 said:

We also need to consider which driver had more support at McLaren of course. I don't think the above shows that either driver is obviously better, but what it does show is that Button is indeed up there with the best of today's drivers. I'm not sure we can draw any conclusions beyond that though can we?

I think it's difficult to make a judgement in sport because there are so many factors affecting the outcome. This especially applies in motorsport, where a huge engineering team also contribute to victory. Unless someone is obviously a Rossi, Schumacher or Federer, comparisons are extremely tricky, if not impossible without in depth knowledge of circumstances. I personally would never dream of judging drivers (or any sports person) from my sofa.

This. x1000.

Thanks.

This actually comes from personal experience! If I race a competitive car and win races, then I get a trophy and people clap etc. However, if I drive an old uncompetitive car on old tyres and come mid-field (as I have done recently), then I get posts on Pistonheads telling me that I'm st and asking why I even bother. Like most people, over the years I've been in both situations and know how it feels. I've also lost opportunities based on these posts, no matter how groundless and daft they are. I'm friends with quite a well known pro driver who's had exactly the same treatment and exactly the same loss of drives etc. Ergo, I would never dream of criticising a driver without knowing all the facts.

[RYH64E]

Scuffers said:

RYH64E said:

Sandford said:

He is British and local so I might also be biased.

Local if you happen to live in Monaco I suppose, it's a shame that the British drivers don't feel sufficiently British to pay their taxes here.

I was watching a re-run on the 2007 season, and in an interview with Lewis (in his first year) he was already looking to leave the UK as he simply could not escape the press intrusions into his life.

Also, if in your chosen carrier, you effectively only had say <10 years, why the hell would you NOT want to be as tax efficient as possible when you consider you will be retiring at <30?

Did you believe the bks about press intrusion, really? It was a money saving venture, pure and simple. I rather doubt that Hamilton or Button will ever have to struggle for money even if they paid UK taxes, the rest of us manage on significantly (very significantly) less money than either of them earns in a year (or month).

What I find difficult to understand is the patriotic support for so called 'British' drivers who have chosen to live as tax exiles rather than give something back to their country of birth. Nobody likes paying taxes, me least of all, but I'm British and I pay more than my fair share of taxes, that's the way it is. As far as I'm concerned they've ditched Britain to save a few quid, I certainly don't consider them to be British drivers.

[London424]

RYH64E said:

Scuffers said:

RYH64E said:

Sandford said:

He is British and local so I might also be biased.

Local if you happen to live in Monaco I suppose, it's a shame that the British drivers don't feel sufficiently British to pay their taxes here.

I was watching a re-run on the 2007 season, and in an interview with Lewis (in his first year) he was already looking to leave the UK as he simply could not escape the press intrusions into his life.

Also, if in your chosen carrier, you effectively only had say <10 years, why the hell would you NOT want to be as tax efficient as possible when you consider you will be retiring at <30?

Did you believe the bks about press intrusion, really? It was a money saving venture, pure and simple. I rather doubt that Hamilton or Button will ever have to struggle for money even if they paid UK taxes, the rest of us manage on significantly (very significantly) less money than either of them earns in a year (or month).

What I find difficult to understand is the patriotic support for so called 'British' drivers who have chosen to live as tax exiles rather than give something back to their country of birth. Nobody likes paying taxes, me least of all, but I'm British and I pay more than my fair share of taxes, that's the way it is. As far as I'm concerned they've ditched Britain to save a few quid, I certainly don't consider them to be British drivers.

But if you barely lived in Britain any more wouldn't you think differently?

The only big chunks of time he could be in the UK would be November - Feb. If you had loads of money and didn't have anything to do would you choose to spend those months here?