The Official 2018 Monaco Grand Prix Thread **SPOILERS**
Discussion
ELUSIVEJIM said:
thegreenhell said:
Honestly this sort of thing goes on all the time, and not just between the works and their customer teams. It could just as easily been a Sauber jumping out of the Merc's way so as not to ruin their own race by not trying to 'race' someone in a faster car or on a different strategy, and that they won't be ahead of at the end of the race no matter what they do. Sometimes they've just got to know which fights to pick and which to concede. I don't know why you're trying to make such a big thing out of it.
Sorry but without Ocon getting out of the way the Mercedes would have struggled to pass.Yes at different circuits it is a waste of time trying to stop a Ferrari or a Mercedes as the performance difference is too great especially with new tyres.
I never thought I would see the day that fan's think it's fine for another team to allow a driver to pass.
That just goes against the whole ethos of the sport.
KevinCamaroSS said:
ELUSIVEJIM said:
thegreenhell said:
Honestly this sort of thing goes on all the time, and not just between the works and their customer teams. It could just as easily been a Sauber jumping out of the Merc's way so as not to ruin their own race by not trying to 'race' someone in a faster car or on a different strategy, and that they won't be ahead of at the end of the race no matter what they do. Sometimes they've just got to know which fights to pick and which to concede. I don't know why you're trying to make such a big thing out of it.
Sorry but without Ocon getting out of the way the Mercedes would have struggled to pass.Yes at different circuits it is a waste of time trying to stop a Ferrari or a Mercedes as the performance difference is too great especially with new tyres.
I never thought I would see the day that fan's think it's fine for another team to allow a driver to pass.
That just goes against the whole ethos of the sport.
king red carpet.Remember when Coulthard in his McLaren not getting from pole and got as far as Enrique Bernoldi in his Arrows and couldn't pass him and Ron Dennis moaning about it and talking about destroying his career, despite it being a battle for position?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorsport/formu...
Vid - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZWPBNVZKdc
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorsport/formu...
Vid - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZWPBNVZKdc
KevinCamaroSS said:
I see that you are so much a Hamilton-hater that facts do not make an impact. It is simple, Ocon's race time overall would have been longer if he fought Hamilton as his lap times would get slower. He knew he had to stop for tyres and that Hamilton would always finish in front because he had already stopped. His race was not with Hamilton, but with Hulkenburg and the other cars around him who had not yet stopped. It is knowing what fights to pick on track, and to fight a car that will inevitably finish in front of you due to the fact that it has already pitted is not a wise move. You need to look at the big picture, not focus on Hamilton.
If it was Vettel being allowed past I would feel exactly the same.It just should not be happening.
Schumacher and Ferrari got slaughter back in the day with their questionable antics but this is just as bad if not worse.
FourWheelDrift said:
Remember when Coulthard in his McLaren not getting from pole and got as far as Enrique Bernoldi in his Arrows and couldn't pass him and Ron Dennis moaning about it and talking about destroying his career, despite it being a battle for position?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorsport/formu...
Vid - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZWPBNVZKdc
Exactly. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/motorsport/formu...
Vid - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZWPBNVZKdc
This is what F1 should be about.
ELUSIVEJIM said:
KevinCamaroSS said:
I see that you are so much a Hamilton-hater that facts do not make an impact. It is simple, Ocon's race time overall would have been longer if he fought Hamilton as his lap times would get slower. He knew he had to stop for tyres and that Hamilton would always finish in front because he had already stopped. His race was not with Hamilton, but with Hulkenburg and the other cars around him who had not yet stopped. It is knowing what fights to pick on track, and to fight a car that will inevitably finish in front of you due to the fact that it has already pitted is not a wise move. You need to look at the big picture, not focus on Hamilton.
If it was Vettel being allowed past I would feel exactly the same.It just should not be happening.
Schumacher and Ferrari got slaughter back in the day with their questionable antics but this is just as bad if not worse.
Dr Z said:
This is funny, but please stop making it personal. It's Monaco! Cars that are 3 seconds a lap faster will struggle to pass. Hamilton wasn't 3 secs a lap faster than Ocon and Ocon didn't need to fight Hamilton, just need to keep it clean and Hamilton wasn't getting by. If a top team makes a "mistake" like that around Monaco, you make 'em pay, not roll out the fking red carpet.
But Ocon still needed to pit whereas Hamilton had already done so. There was no material benefit to Ocon holding up Hamilton, Hamilton would have passed him when Ocon pitted anyway.king red carpet.VladD said:
Dr Z said:
This is funny, but please stop making it personal. It's Monaco! Cars that are 3 seconds a lap faster will struggle to pass. Hamilton wasn't 3 secs a lap faster than Ocon and Ocon didn't need to fight Hamilton, just need to keep it clean and Hamilton wasn't getting by. If a top team makes a "mistake" like that around Monaco, you make 'em pay, not roll out the fking red carpet.
But Ocon still needed to pit whereas Hamilton had already done so. There was no material benefit to Ocon holding up Hamilton, Hamilton would have passed him when Ocon pitted anyway.king red carpet.HustleRussell said:
I'm with KCSS, Ocon was on his way to class B victory despite nursing a brake by wire problem and managing delicate Hypersofts. Braking later and / or going offline to defend would've risked locking up, hitting a wall, dirtying his tyres etc etc. Holding Hamilton up would've been entirely pointless as Hamilton had the strategic checkmate of already having pitted, it was not a fight for track position. Finally Ocon is angling for a drive with- you've guessed it...
Ocon's brake issue was near the end of the race.This is taken from Autoweek.
Force India driver Esteban Ocon suggested Sunday that there is an unwritten rule that he won’t hold up any Mercedes factory driver during a Grand Prix event – the Frenchman being part of the Mercedes young driver setup.
When Lewis Hamilton pitted in an attempt to undercut and pass second-place Sebastian Vettel during the Monaco Grand Prix, he came out right on the tail of Ocon but, despite struggling to get anywhere near to the back of Vettel’s Ferrari during the first stint of the race, it looked suspiciously easy for the championship leader to pass Ocon -- a member of Mercedes' young driver program.
Granted, Ocon was on much older tires, and the Mercedes is a much stronger car, but Hamilton was able to glide past unchallenged. Such was the ease that even the television commentators suggested potential foul play at the time.
“Maybe,” said Ocon when asked whether there was an unwritten rule. “I’m a Mercedes driver, you should ask the boss. It was pointless to fight with him, especially as he had new tires.”
Belgium newspaper La Dernière Heure asked Mercedes boss Toto Wolff about the situation, to which Wolf replied “Yes, because that’s the way it is.”
If there has indeed been foul play and Mercedes did order Ocon to move out of the way, the FIA may decide to issue some pretty stern punishments to the German manufacturer. The only similar incident to this, which if proven to be true is tantamount to fixing the race result, is in Singapore in 2008 when Renault ordered Nelson Piquet Jr. to deliberately crash his car to benefit and ultimately gift a victory to teammate Fernando Alonso.
While not as extreme in this instance, the 2008 saw Renault handed a suspended disqualification from the championship while those who made the call were initially banned from working in the sport.
Martin Brundles thoughts
FORMULA 1 legend Martin Brundle has led the outcry over an ugly, “blatant” moment where the fix was in between Mercedes and rivals Force India.
Hamilton’s overtake of Esteban Ocon early in the Monaco Grand Prix has been the talk of the grid since the buzz surrounding Aussie Daniel Ricciardo’s sublime victory began to subside.
Brundle declared he is not proud of the incident where Ocon weakly moved his Force India aside to allow Hamilton to pass without so much as a whimper.
Hamilton made an audacious move, pitting for softer and faster tires after just 12 laps at the Monaco Grand Prix. The Mercedes driver came out in sixth place, behind Ocon. But Hamilton quickly passed the Frenchman to move into fifth behind teammate Valtteri Bottas.
Brundle wrote in a column for Skysports.com, it is a bad look for the sport that Hamilton was so brazenly able to benefit from an alliance between Mercedes and Force India.
Mercedes supplies Force India with the team’s power units and Ocon remains contracted to Mercedes on a long-term deal despite his loan-move to Force India before the 2017 Formula 1 season.
“There is a phase of that race I’m really not proud of,” the Sky Sports commentator wrote.
“Drivers calling in to say how slow the pace was, shortly followed by Force India drivers lifting off the throttle of their Mercedes-engined cars to give way to a recently pitted works Mercedes car, for position.
“Now I accept there’s often no point in losing time to your real race rivals by fighting against an inevitable pass, but that was just too blatant.”
The bad taste left in the mouths of F1 supporters was exacerbated by Ocon’s refusal to deny the alliance after the race.
“Maybe,” Ocon was quoted saying when asked if he’d been ordered to make way for Hamilton.
“I’m a Mercedes driver, you should ask the boss. It was pointless to fight with him, especially as he had new tyres.”
Mercedes boss Toto Wolff also poured fuel on the fire, by admitting his team was given a free pass by its client, according to a Belgium newspaper.
“Yes, because that’s the way it is,” Wolff reportedly said when asked if Mercedes ordered Force India to back down.
Ferrari star Kimi Raikkonen declared after the race he was unable to skip ahead of Hamilton in the battle for P3 during the early pit stops because of Hamilton’s free gift from Ocon.
Raikkonen went on to finish fourth behind Hamilton, who claimed the third spot on the podium.
“Obviously they pitted in the traffic but it was a Force India car and they got let by him,” Raikkonen said, according to racefans.net.
“We stayed two laps out but it takes such a long time to clean the front that it didn’t really give us any opportunity.”
Force India deputy team principal Bob Fearnley has denied his team was ordered to let Hamilton through, saying Ocon would also have let Ferrari star Sebastian Vettel and Red Bull’s Ricciardo through rather than fight to hold them off and risk deteriorating his tyres on a one-stop strategy.
FORMULA 1 legend Martin Brundle has led the outcry over an ugly, “blatant” moment where the fix was in between Mercedes and rivals Force India.
Hamilton’s overtake of Esteban Ocon early in the Monaco Grand Prix has been the talk of the grid since the buzz surrounding Aussie Daniel Ricciardo’s sublime victory began to subside.
Brundle declared he is not proud of the incident where Ocon weakly moved his Force India aside to allow Hamilton to pass without so much as a whimper.
Hamilton made an audacious move, pitting for softer and faster tires after just 12 laps at the Monaco Grand Prix. The Mercedes driver came out in sixth place, behind Ocon. But Hamilton quickly passed the Frenchman to move into fifth behind teammate Valtteri Bottas.
Brundle wrote in a column for Skysports.com, it is a bad look for the sport that Hamilton was so brazenly able to benefit from an alliance between Mercedes and Force India.
Mercedes supplies Force India with the team’s power units and Ocon remains contracted to Mercedes on a long-term deal despite his loan-move to Force India before the 2017 Formula 1 season.
“There is a phase of that race I’m really not proud of,” the Sky Sports commentator wrote.
“Drivers calling in to say how slow the pace was, shortly followed by Force India drivers lifting off the throttle of their Mercedes-engined cars to give way to a recently pitted works Mercedes car, for position.
“Now I accept there’s often no point in losing time to your real race rivals by fighting against an inevitable pass, but that was just too blatant.”
The bad taste left in the mouths of F1 supporters was exacerbated by Ocon’s refusal to deny the alliance after the race.
“Maybe,” Ocon was quoted saying when asked if he’d been ordered to make way for Hamilton.
“I’m a Mercedes driver, you should ask the boss. It was pointless to fight with him, especially as he had new tyres.”
Mercedes boss Toto Wolff also poured fuel on the fire, by admitting his team was given a free pass by its client, according to a Belgium newspaper.
“Yes, because that’s the way it is,” Wolff reportedly said when asked if Mercedes ordered Force India to back down.
Ferrari star Kimi Raikkonen declared after the race he was unable to skip ahead of Hamilton in the battle for P3 during the early pit stops because of Hamilton’s free gift from Ocon.
Raikkonen went on to finish fourth behind Hamilton, who claimed the third spot on the podium.
“Obviously they pitted in the traffic but it was a Force India car and they got let by him,” Raikkonen said, according to racefans.net.
“We stayed two laps out but it takes such a long time to clean the front that it didn’t really give us any opportunity.”
Force India deputy team principal Bob Fearnley has denied his team was ordered to let Hamilton through, saying Ocon would also have let Ferrari star Sebastian Vettel and Red Bull’s Ricciardo through rather than fight to hold them off and risk deteriorating his tyres on a one-stop strategy.
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 30th May 13:39
ELUSIVEJIM said:
Ocon's brake issue was near the end of the race.
This is taken from Autoweek.
Force India driver Esteban Ocon suggested Sunday that there is an unwritten rule that he won’t hold up any Mercedes factory driver during a Grand Prix event – the Frenchman being part of the Mercedes young driver setup.
When Lewis Hamilton pitted in an attempt to undercut and pass second-place Sebastian Vettel during the Monaco Grand Prix, he came out right on the tail of Ocon but, despite struggling to get anywhere near to the back of Vettel’s Ferrari during the first stint of the race, it looked suspiciously easy for the championship leader to pass Ocon -- a member of Mercedes' young driver program.
Granted, Ocon was on much older tires, and the Mercedes is a much stronger car, but Hamilton was able to glide past unchallenged. Such was the ease that even the television commentators suggested potential foul play at the time.
“Maybe,” said Ocon when asked whether there was an unwritten rule. “I’m a Mercedes driver, you should ask the boss. It was pointless to fight with him, especially as he had new tires.”
Belgium newspaper La Dernière Heure asked Mercedes boss Toto Wolff about the situation, to which Wolf replied “Yes, because that’s the way it is.”
If there has indeed been foul play and Mercedes did order Ocon to move out of the way, the FIA may decide to issue some pretty stern punishments to the German manufacturer. The only similar incident to this, which if proven to be true is tantamount to fixing the race result, is in Singapore in 2008 when Renault ordered Nelson Piquet Jr. to deliberately crash his car to benefit and ultimately gift a victory to teammate Fernando Alonso.
While not as extreme in this instance, the 2008 saw Renault handed a suspended disqualification from the championship while those who made the call were initially banned from working in the sport.
the unwritten rule is the same for Torro rosso and Red bull and Ferrari and Sauber. the main team has priority. This is taken from Autoweek.
Force India driver Esteban Ocon suggested Sunday that there is an unwritten rule that he won’t hold up any Mercedes factory driver during a Grand Prix event – the Frenchman being part of the Mercedes young driver setup.
When Lewis Hamilton pitted in an attempt to undercut and pass second-place Sebastian Vettel during the Monaco Grand Prix, he came out right on the tail of Ocon but, despite struggling to get anywhere near to the back of Vettel’s Ferrari during the first stint of the race, it looked suspiciously easy for the championship leader to pass Ocon -- a member of Mercedes' young driver program.
Granted, Ocon was on much older tires, and the Mercedes is a much stronger car, but Hamilton was able to glide past unchallenged. Such was the ease that even the television commentators suggested potential foul play at the time.
“Maybe,” said Ocon when asked whether there was an unwritten rule. “I’m a Mercedes driver, you should ask the boss. It was pointless to fight with him, especially as he had new tires.”
Belgium newspaper La Dernière Heure asked Mercedes boss Toto Wolff about the situation, to which Wolf replied “Yes, because that’s the way it is.”
If there has indeed been foul play and Mercedes did order Ocon to move out of the way, the FIA may decide to issue some pretty stern punishments to the German manufacturer. The only similar incident to this, which if proven to be true is tantamount to fixing the race result, is in Singapore in 2008 when Renault ordered Nelson Piquet Jr. to deliberately crash his car to benefit and ultimately gift a victory to teammate Fernando Alonso.
While not as extreme in this instance, the 2008 saw Renault handed a suspended disqualification from the championship while those who made the call were initially banned from working in the sport.
REALIST123 said:
Having just this minute seen the ‘overtake’ on the replay, Hamilton was clearly allowed through.
There’s no way that would have happened so early on without the Mercedes effect.
Yes but there was absolutely no reason for Ocon not to let him through. Defending the position would only have added to his own race time and as he was yet to pit he was always going to end up behind Hamilton (regardlesss if he pitted during normal race conditions or not). There’s no way that would have happened so early on without the Mercedes effect.
ELUSIVEJIM said:
If there has indeed been foul play and Mercedes did order Ocon to move out of the way, the FIA may decide to issue some pretty stern punishments to the German manufacturer. The only similar incident to this, which if proven to be true is tantamount to fixing the race result, is in Singapore in 2008 when Renault ordered Nelson Piquet Jr. to deliberately crash his car to benefit and ultimately gift a victory to teammate Fernando Alonso.
While not as extreme in this instance, the 2008 saw Renault handed a suspended disqualification from the championship while those who made the call were initially banned from working in the sport.
What are you talking about? It's not remotely the same thing. At worst it was equivalent to a team order, which isn't even against the rules.While not as extreme in this instance, the 2008 saw Renault handed a suspended disqualification from the championship while those who made the call were initially banned from working in the sport.
ash73 said:
Merc wrecked the race for everyone by pitting Lewis so early, and they had to get him past Ocon quickly. It was nothing to do with Ocon maximising his own race, imo.
Good illustration of why Ron knocked on Honda's door.
Very true.... But it makes McLaren's behaviour once they'd partnered up with Honda even more incredible.Good illustration of why Ron knocked on Honda's door.
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