Official 2021 Spanish Grand Prix Thread **SPOILERS**

[kiseca]

Gad-Westy said:

stemll said:

Not sure your last statement holds up.

Hamilton's teammates have 4 championships between them as did Schumacher's compared to 9 for Prost's teammates and 7 for Senna's. Senna had 3 champions as teammates, Prost had 5.

Hamilton - Alonso (2), Rosberg(1), Button(1)
Prost - Lauda(3), Senna (3), Rosberg(1), Mansell(1), Hill(1).
Senna - Prost(4), Hakkinen(2), Hill(1)
Schumacher - Piquet (3), Rosberg(1)
Fangio - Farina (Moss was no slouch either but the less said about the rest, the better)

Prost certainly did it the hard way didn't he?!

If you count it by number of championships rather than number of champions, then the top guy is one Nico Rosberg, whose two champion team mates (both of which he beat in a season) have claimed 14 titles between them!

[WickerBill]

stemll said:

WickerBill said:

Same can be said for Red Bull can it not?

Now they have a car to match Mercedes, lets put a world class driver in against Max and see how he would cope....

...people give Bottas a hard time, and keep saying Mercedes need a world class second driver to somehow calibrate whether hamilton is great or not but its never been the case throughout F1 history. Schumacher had dud teammates as did Senna, Prost, Fangio etc etc...

If anything, over his career Hamilton has had better teammates than any of those with 3 world champions in the other car.

Not sure your last statement holds up.

Hamilton's teammates have 4 championships between them as did Schumacher's compared to 9 for Prost's teammates and 7 for Senna's. Senna had 3 champions as teammates, Prost had 5.

Hamilton - Alonso (2), Rosberg(1), Button(1)
Prost - Lauda(3), Senna (3), Rosberg(1), Mansell(1), Hill(1).
Senna - Prost(4), Hakkinen(2), Hill(1)
Schumacher - Piquet (3), Rosberg(1)
Fangio - Farina (Moss was no slouch either but the less said about the rest, the better)

That’s a fair point, but I’d also counter that slightly by saying some of those drivers were a bit passed it or rookies. Look at Schumacher...Piquet was passed it and Rosberg was very young. Senna was with Prost when he was in his prime, but Hakkinen and Hill were rookies etc

Hamilton has been fighting 3 world champions while they were in their prime

[Exige77]

kiseca said:

Gad-Westy said:

stemll said:

Not sure your last statement holds up.

Hamilton's teammates have 4 championships between them as did Schumacher's compared to 9 for Prost's teammates and 7 for Senna's. Senna had 3 champions as teammates, Prost had 5.

Hamilton - Alonso (2), Rosberg(1), Button(1)
Prost - Lauda(3), Senna (3), Rosberg(1), Mansell(1), Hill(1).
Senna - Prost(4), Hakkinen(2), Hill(1)
Schumacher - Piquet (3), Rosberg(1)
Fangio - Farina (Moss was no slouch either but the less said about the rest, the better)

Prost certainly did it the hard way didn't he?!

If you count it by number of championships rather than number of champions, then the top guy is one Nico Rosberg, whose two champion team mates (both of which he beat in a season) have claimed 14 titles between them!

That’s a pretty meaningless statistic though ?

MS was way past his sell by date and NR needed a super human effort and a bit of luck to beat Hamilton.

NR was a very good driver but not in the same bracket as the many multiple WDCs.

[oyster]

kiseca said:

Gad-Westy said:

stemll said:

Not sure your last statement holds up.

Hamilton's teammates have 4 championships between them as did Schumacher's compared to 9 for Prost's teammates and 7 for Senna's. Senna had 3 champions as teammates, Prost had 5.

Hamilton - Alonso (2), Rosberg(1), Button(1)
Prost - Lauda(3), Senna (3), Rosberg(1), Mansell(1), Hill(1).
Senna - Prost(4), Hakkinen(2), Hill(1)
Schumacher - Piquet (3), Rosberg(1)
Fangio - Farina (Moss was no slouch either but the less said about the rest, the better)

Prost certainly did it the hard way didn't he?!

If you count it by number of championships rather than number of champions, then the top guy is one Nico Rosberg, whose two champion team mates (both of which he beat in a season) have claimed 14 titles between them!

I think history may be very kind to Nico Rosberg.
He beat one 7-time champion 3 from 3 and beat another 7(8)-time champion 1 from 4.

Imagine a parallel universe where Hamilton stayed at McLaren - we could be talking about Rosberg on the brink of an 8th title.

[MiniMan64]

oyster said:

kiseca said:

Gad-Westy said:

stemll said:

Not sure your last statement holds up.

Hamilton's teammates have 4 championships between them as did Schumacher's compared to 9 for Prost's teammates and 7 for Senna's. Senna had 3 champions as teammates, Prost had 5.

Hamilton - Alonso (2), Rosberg(1), Button(1)
Prost - Lauda(3), Senna (3), Rosberg(1), Mansell(1), Hill(1).
Senna - Prost(4), Hakkinen(2), Hill(1)
Schumacher - Piquet (3), Rosberg(1)
Fangio - Farina (Moss was no slouch either but the less said about the rest, the better)

Prost certainly did it the hard way didn't he?!

If you count it by number of championships rather than number of champions, then the top guy is one Nico Rosberg, whose two champion team mates (both of which he beat in a season) have claimed 14 titles between them!

I think history may be very kind to Nico Rosberg.
He beat one 7-time champion 3 from 3 and beat another 7(8)-time champion 1 from 4.

Imagine a parallel universe where Hamilton stayed at McLaren - we could be talking about Rosberg on the brink of an 8th title.

We could be but I suspect we wouldn't be. Alonso would probably have retired much happier by now if that was the case I think...

[kiseca]

Exige77 said:

kiseca said:

Gad-Westy said:

stemll said:

Not sure your last statement holds up.

Hamilton's teammates have 4 championships between them as did Schumacher's compared to 9 for Prost's teammates and 7 for Senna's. Senna had 3 champions as teammates, Prost had 5.

Hamilton - Alonso (2), Rosberg(1), Button(1)
Prost - Lauda(3), Senna (3), Rosberg(1), Mansell(1), Hill(1).
Senna - Prost(4), Hakkinen(2), Hill(1)
Schumacher - Piquet (3), Rosberg(1)
Fangio - Farina (Moss was no slouch either but the less said about the rest, the better)

Prost certainly did it the hard way didn't he?!

If you count it by number of championships rather than number of champions, then the top guy is one Nico Rosberg, whose two champion team mates (both of which he beat in a season) have claimed 14 titles between them!

That’s a pretty meaningless statistic though ?

MS was way past his sell by date and NR needed a super human effort and a bit of luck to beat Hamilton.

NR was a very good driver but not in the same bracket as the many multiple WDCs.

I'm not saying Rosberg's the best ever , just when counting championship wins for team mates he tops the table. Make of that what you want. I agree that odds were on MS being past it, but I also think (and I've said it before) the daft tyres that would melt if you drove too fast, and the lack of testing both knocked out two of his big strengths. Either way, what I take from that is that Nico can look at his career, know he raced against the two two most successful drivers in Formula 1 history, and managed to beat them both. Not that he was the best, but that he beat the best. That must feel sweet.

For me, Prost's record stands out for a couple of reasons. Firstly, a few people knock him down because he blocked Senna as his team mate at Williams, saying he was afraid to face someone faster. But his whole career he faced the fastest drivers and took them on.. And yes, he did lose a season to two of them, one to Lauda and one to Senna, but he was never beaten overall by anyone. Against Lauda and Senna, the score was 1-1. Against all the rest, Prost came out on top. I'm just relying on memory here but I do believe that apart from those two seasons, Prost was never beaten in the championship by a team mate. Even against Lauda and Senna Prost scored more points overall in their time as team mates.

[MustangGT]

RonaldMcDonaldAteMyCat said:

MustangGT said:

RonaldMcDonaldAteMyCat said:

He was specifically told not to hold him up and that Hamilton was going for the win. Exactly a blue flag scenario.

I don't agree. VB was ahead of LH in the race, it was an overtake for position. The FIA uses blue flags for back-markers being lapped.

I plainly didn't mean it was an actual blue flag, for obvious reasons. Neither were they truly racing for position. The instruction from the team meant he should have moved as he would have done were there a blue flag, something he failed to do and will likely be dealt with internally.

Ahh, okay, fully agree. No doubt it will be handled internally.

[paua]

kiseca said:

I'm not saying Rosberg's the best ever , just when counting championship wins for team mates he tops the table. Make of that what you want. I agree that odds were on MS being past it, but I also think (and I've said it before) the daft tyres that would melt if you drove too fast, and the lack of testing both knocked out two of his big strengths. Either way, what I take from that is that Nico can look at his career, know he raced against the two two most successful drivers in Formula 1 history, and managed to beat them both. Not that he was the best, but that he beat the best. That must feel sweet.

For me, Prost's record stands out for a couple of reasons. Firstly, a few people knock him down because he blocked Senna as his team mate at Williams, saying he was afraid to face someone faster. But his whole career he faced the fastest drivers and took them on.. And yes, he did lose a season to two of them, one to Lauda and one to Senna, but he was never beaten overall by anyone. Against Lauda and Senna, the score was 1-1. Against all the rest, Prost came out on top. I'm just relying on memory here but I do believe that apart from those two seasons, Prost was never beaten in the championship by a team mate. Even against Lauda and Senna Prost scored more points overall in their time as team mates.

Was only the vagaries of the then points system that lost him the title to Senna.

[cgt2]

Hakkinen outqualified Senna in their first race after Andretti was booted, the behind the scenes stuff in that moment was covered in the McLaren series in 1993. It was brilliant and really conveyed Senna's intensity, he was seething that a rookie outqualified him while Hakkinen seemed totally perplexed how he had actually done it. TV gold.

Here it is

https://youtu.be/2eua-v_8cJI

Edited by cgt2 on Tuesday 11th May 11:04

Edited by cgt2 on Tuesday 11th May 11:06

[eps]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

I disagree with your DR comment. He realised he was going to be compromised in terms of team preference and choices and so either had to accept that he was going to be a de facto number 2 to MV or move somewhere else and see what he could achieve. I don't think he ran away from the fight, he could see the writing on the wall.

[MustangGT]

eps said:

I disagree with your DR comment. He realised he was going to be compromised in terms of team preference and choices and so either had to accept that he was going to be a de facto number 2 to MV or move somewhere else and see what he could achieve. I don't think he ran away from the fight, he could see the writing on the wall.

Agree with this. Until the middle of that season he was actually ahead of MV. How much of a kick in the b***s would it be to be told that you are the number 2, especially after you have beaten Vettel?

[HighwayStar]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

RebBull gave Max a multi year big bucks contract.
When it came to DR contract. He was offered far far less the Max. Right there, RedBull played their hand. Of course they are going to back who they saw as their lead driver and reward him accordingly but... they presumed their offer to DR was good enough. After all he’s not going to leave. Where would he go. The offer said what he was worth to the team, far less than Max and he was #2. Max’s bh. DR thought otherwise and left. Can’t blame him. It was worth it for the look on Spice Boys face when he was interviewed about DR departure.

[TheDeuce]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

I agree, and I don't blame DR for leaving at all. I don't see why he would have hung around, even for the sake of 'winning more races'.. His target it a Title, better to leave RB and have a 1% chance of that being achieved than remain at RB and have a 0% chance.

The only thing I find interesting is why they favored Max in the first place. We don't see all the data of course, but we do see the results play out, and the fact is that adjusted for DNF's there was nothing in it between the two drivers. I think it was probably more that Max was younger and there is a perceived wisdom he had time to grow and further improve, and also that his youth at the time made him radical, exciting and basically everything that a fizzy energy drinks brand needs! So... no need to judge DR for leaving, no particular reason to think RB were in the wrong to prioritise Max, but clearly they did also want to retain DR and sorely misjudged their offer and approach. It has to be one of the lowest points of Horner's TP career, as it's plain to see that since DR, no one has been a Max equivalent. We can't talk about DR losing out after leaving RB without noting that also RB have lost out due to losing DR...

I do think that the whole chapter was played out a bit crudely by RB too. They didn't have to side with Max so obviously, they could have genuinely left the door open for DR to be given title support if he could get an early lead on Max and, as such, balanced their salaries. They had something of a unique driver pairing in that they were closely matched but also got on well and were very popular as a 'duo', there was endless positive PR around that fact.

The whole thing is just a bit 'sad' imo.

[Exige77]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

It could well be Marko’s or even Mateschitz’s doing.

Horner is no numpty but at the end of the day the guys in Austria call the shots.

Imagine RB in 2021 with Max and Daniel in what is a very competitive car.

[TheDeuce]

Exige77 said:

It could well be Marko’s or even Mateschitz’s doing.

Horner is no numpty but at the end of the day the guys in Austria call the shots.

Imagine RB in 2021 with Max and Daniel in what is a very competitive car.

You're probably right. From Horner's pov, he's leading a competitive team in the sport. From the RB boards POV, they might have seen Max's incredible popularity and ability to raise headlines as something that must be secured and protected - even if it's potentially to the detriment of the teams sporting success.

[Sandpit Steve]

TheDeuce said:

You're probably right. From Horner's pov, he's leading a competitive team in the sport. From the RB boards POV, they might have seen Max's incredible popularity and ability to raise headlines as something that must be secured and protected - even if it's potentially to the detriment of the teams sporting success.

They put all their eggs in the MV basket and lost DR as a result because they treated him like crap.

Now they have a car that can potentially challenge for the title, they don’t have a second driver who can regularly pick up the required podium finishes.

Meanwhile, Mercedes have seven podium finishes from four races, against RB having only four. The black and silver cars have three of the four bonus points too.

[entropy]

TheDeuce said:

I agree, and I don't blame DR for leaving at all. I don't see why he would have hung around, even for the sake of 'winning more races'.. His target it a Title, better to leave RB and have a 1% chance of that being achieved than remain at RB and have a 0% chance.

The only thing I find interesting is why they favored Max in the first place. We don't see all the data of course, but we do see the results play out, and the fact is that adjusted for DNF's there was nothing in it between the two drivers. I think it was probably more that Max was younger and there is a perceived wisdom he had time to grow and further improve, and also that his youth at the time made him radical, exciting and basically everything that a fizzy energy drinks brand needs! So... no need to judge DR for leaving, no particular reason to think RB were in the wrong to prioritise Max, but clearly they did also want to retain DR and sorely misjudged their offer and approach. It has to be one of the lowest points of Horner's TP career, as it's plain to see that since DR, no one has been a Max equivalent. We can't talk about DR losing out after leaving RB without noting that also RB have lost out due to losing DR...

I do think that the whole chapter was played out a bit crudely by RB too. They didn't have to side with Max so obviously, they could have genuinely left the door open for DR to be given title support if he could get an early lead on Max and, as such, balanced their salaries. They had something of a unique driver pairing in that they were closely matched but also got on well and were very popular as a 'duo', there was endless positive PR around that fact.

The whole thing is just a bit 'sad' imo.

I don't think Max was being favoured.

There is that perception.

What sealed DR to leave RBR was the crash they had at Azerbaijan. It was a racing incident and RBR were too defensive/favouring Max - at the time Max was known for his overt blocks. In retrospect I think they were protecting Max from further media onslaught.

Also I think the other factor was the Orange Army/Max factor rubs off internally.

I don't watch the Team Principle press conferences but on the first season (last epidode?) of Drive To Survive you clearly saw how saddened Horner was at losing DR and the mutual respect he had for Cyril Abiteboul. RBR definitely tried to keep DR and Danny was more intent on leaving.

My fear is that history could repeat itself again at McLaren and DR forever finding a competitive team and shows him love more than the other guy.

[HighwayStar]

entropy said:

TheDeuce said:

I agree, and I don't blame DR for leaving at all. I don't see why he would have hung around, even for the sake of 'winning more races'.. His target it a Title, better to leave RB and have a 1% chance of that being achieved than remain at RB and have a 0% chance.

The only thing I find interesting is why they favored Max in the first place. We don't see all the data of course, but we do see the results play out, and the fact is that adjusted for DNF's there was nothing in it between the two drivers. I think it was probably more that Max was younger and there is a perceived wisdom he had time to grow and further improve, and also that his youth at the time made him radical, exciting and basically everything that a fizzy energy drinks brand needs! So... no need to judge DR for leaving, no particular reason to think RB were in the wrong to prioritise Max, but clearly they did also want to retain DR and sorely misjudged their offer and approach. It has to be one of the lowest points of Horner's TP career, as it's plain to see that since DR, no one has been a Max equivalent. We can't talk about DR losing out after leaving RB without noting that also RB have lost out due to losing DR...

I do think that the whole chapter was played out a bit crudely by RB too. They didn't have to side with Max so obviously, they could have genuinely left the door open for DR to be given title support if he could get an early lead on Max and, as such, balanced their salaries. They had something of a unique driver pairing in that they were closely matched but also got on well and were very popular as a 'duo', there was endless positive PR around that fact.

The whole thing is just a bit 'sad' imo.

I don't think Max was being favoured.

There is that perception.

What sealed DR to leave RBR was the crash they had at Azerbaijan. It was a racing incident and RBR were too defensive/favouring Max - at the time Max was known for his overt blocks. In retrospect I think they were protecting Max from further media onslaught.

Also I think the other factor was the Orange Army/Max factor rubs off internally.

I don't watch the Team Principle press conferences but on the first season (last epidode?) of Drive To Survive you clearly saw how saddened Horner was at losing DR and the mutual respect he had for Cyril Abiteboul. RBR definitely tried to keep DR and Danny was more intent on leaving.

My fear is that history could repeat itself again at McLaren and DR forever finding a competitive team and shows him love more than the other guy.

They didn’t try to keep him. They insulted him with a contract offer they thought was enough because there wasn’t a better drive available, he’d take the offer and stay... it blew up in their faces.
Of course Horner was saddened at losing DR. They could’ve taken the fight to Mercedes. A case of look what you could’ve won Bob but instead they got Kvyat, Gasly and Albon.

[Deesee]

Off topic here...

But Max’s basic was less than Dani’s basic, although it was more attractive as performance lead, WCC points = big euros, up to 20+ million pa.

Dani ran from the fight, pure and simple, and went to Renault on a fantastic package financially & ended up in legal action against his advisor in what was a pretty poor car.

KIV he’s on less money now at McLaren than he was at red bull, and frankly has lost 2 seasons at Renault, and perhaps Lando on a 10th of the cash has the measure of him.

He did not have the credentials of a Prost that left McLaren, to me talented driver but lacks the awareness to be a champion...

[Deesee]

Top stat




Red Bull really struggling on the C2 tyres at race end.