The Official 2018 Singapore Grand Prix Thread **SPOILERS**
Discussion
Eric Mc said:
The negotiation of back markers was always part of the skills of motor racing. Indeed, it was always touted of one of Ayrton Senna's great attributes. Of course, in the modern era, F1 drivers no longer need that particular skill.
I'm not advocating the abolition of blue flags. They are an important aspect of track racing. It's just the "uber compliance" required by back markers in the current application of the "blue flag" rule that's the problem.
And, of course, it's just one more element of unpredictability neutered under current rules.
When you Google Senna and back markers, the only thing who comes out is Senna crashing in a back markers... I wouldn't call this a great attributes. Appart from that I can't remember Senna doing anything special about back markers. Any links? I'm not advocating the abolition of blue flags. They are an important aspect of track racing. It's just the "uber compliance" required by back markers in the current application of the "blue flag" rule that's the problem.
And, of course, it's just one more element of unpredictability neutered under current rules.
Gaz. said:
The front of the grid was 4 seconds a lap faster than the midfield in the late 80s.
Yes the solution would be to get rid of minimum ride heights, bigger diffuses and venturi tunnels, and proper tyres. That'll never happen due to St Senna dying on live tv.
What has Senna's death got to do with your solutions?Yes the solution would be to get rid of minimum ride heights, bigger diffuses and venturi tunnels, and proper tyres. That'll never happen due to St Senna dying on live tv.
Your "St Senna" comment is just distasteful.
E34-3.2 said:
When you Google Senna and back markers, the only thing who comes out is Senna crashing in a back markers... I wouldn't call this a great attributes. Appart from that I can't remember Senna doing anything special about back markers. Any links?
Many drivers being lapped talked about the fact "if you saw the McLaren with the yellow helmet you got out of the way"He was the same in qualifying when he came across cars which were on a slow lap.
Perhaps that is why Hamilton worships him.
Edited by anonymous-user on Saturday 22 September 15:46
But being human he also makes mistakes
Famous pass by Mansell
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAlULf9EDBw
Famous pass by Mansell
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAlULf9EDBw
E34-3.2 said:
Eric Mc said:
The negotiation of back markers was always part of the skills of motor racing. Indeed, it was always touted of one of Ayrton Senna's great attributes. Of course, in the modern era, F1 drivers no longer need that particular skill.
I'm not advocating the abolition of blue flags. They are an important aspect of track racing. It's just the "uber compliance" required by back markers in the current application of the "blue flag" rule that's the problem.
And, of course, it's just one more element of unpredictability neutered under current rules.
When you Google Senna and back markers, the only thing who comes out is Senna crashing in a back markers... I wouldn't call this a great attributes. Appart from that I can't remember Senna doing anything special about back markers. Any links? I'm not advocating the abolition of blue flags. They are an important aspect of track racing. It's just the "uber compliance" required by back markers in the current application of the "blue flag" rule that's the problem.
And, of course, it's just one more element of unpredictability neutered under current rules.
Of course the you tubers will want to put up the dramatic (and relatively) uncommon incidents.
But the fact that there was always the CHANCE that he might not get through them all was part of the uncertainty.
I don't want my motor racing perfect and clinical i.e predictable.
Gaz. said:
Not a slight on the man at all, but his death caused a massive change in thinking by the FIA, especially with ground effects & ride heights, if Senna could be caught out then what hope for the rest of them...
Senna was caught out by a steering column failing.That would catch out anyone when you have no control over the car.
Gaz. said:
Not a slight on the man at all, but his death caused a massive change in thinking by the FIA, especially with ground effects & ride heights, if Senna could be caught out then what hope for the rest of them...
I think it was the threat of legal problems that galvanised the FIA. The problems had been identified well before that Imola race. Don't forget there was Ratzenberger's death as well, plus Barrichello and a number of mechanics were injured. It was carnage. The whole system of organisation of races was seen to fail. The FIA was lucky, if that's the word, that the focus was on Senna's death and the hunt for someone to blame for the specifics of that incident. Derek Smith said:
Gaz. said:
Not a slight on the man at all, but his death caused a massive change in thinking by the FIA, especially with ground effects & ride heights, if Senna could be caught out then what hope for the rest of them...
I think it was the threat of legal problems that galvanised the FIA. The problems had been identified well before that Imola race. Don't forget there was Ratzenberger's death as well, plus Barrichello and a number of mechanics were injured. It was carnage. Derek Smith said:
I think it was the threat of legal problems that galvanised the FIA. The problems had been identified well before that Imola race. Don't forget there was Ratzenberger's death as well, plus Barrichello and a number of mechanics were injured. It was carnage. The whole system of organisation of races was seen to fail. The FIA was lucky, if that's the word, that the focus was on Senna's death and the hunt for someone to blame for the specifics of that incident.
The Lamy/Lehto start crash, debris into the grandstand that created the safety car that led to Senna's crash and the lose wheel from Alborteto on pitlane, pit crew injuries that instigated the pit lane speed limit or 80km/h in practice, 120 km/h in the race.http://www.atlasf1.com/news/safety.html
ELUSIVEJIM said:
E34-3.2 said:
When you Google Senna and back markers, the only thing who comes out is Senna crashing in a back markers... I wouldn't call this a great attributes. Appart from that I can't remember Senna doing anything special about back markers. Any links?
Many drivers being lapped talked about the fact "if you saw the McLaren with the yellow helmet you got out of the way"He was the same in qualifying when he came across cars which were on a slow lap.
cb1965 said:
What Senna did used to do was ingratiate himself to the whole grid by stopping and talking with other drivers when the chance arose. Many thought it was just because he was a nice guy out of the car, but it also helped the other drivers regard him highly and not hold him up when he was coming up behind them. Those top drivers with a less friendly attitude to the lower parts of the grid weren't accorded the same level of courtesy.
A skill that is sadly no longer needed since the nanny state of blue flags.It was quite ridiculous that Charlie Whiting apologised to Hamilton for the blue flags in Singapore. It's not Whiting's fault that some cars didn't immediately jump out of the way while engaged in their own battle.
Blue Flags should be binned.
sparta6 said:
cb1965 said:
What Senna did used to do was ingratiate himself to the whole grid by stopping and talking with other drivers when the chance arose. Many thought it was just because he was a nice guy out of the car, but it also helped the other drivers regard him highly and not hold him up when he was coming up behind them. Those top drivers with a less friendly attitude to the lower parts of the grid weren't accorded the same level of courtesy.
A skill that is sadly no longer needed since the nanny state of blue flags.It was quite ridiculous that Charlie Whiting apologised to Hamilton for the blue flags in Singapore. It's not Whiting's fault that some cars didn't immediately jump out of the way while engaged in their own battle.
Blue Flags should be binned.
LDN said:
It’ll never happen. For a few different reasons, as has been discussed.
Some weeks ago now, when Ken Tyrrell ran his team, he instructed his drivers that they should not assist cars lapping them, which happened frequently some seasons. If they did so they evidently got a severe 'talking to'. Some exciting races were all but ruined by cars being held up, especially when pursuing the leaders. Others followed his example. Blue flags were used for some years, the meaning being something like 'there's a faster car closing on you', but there were no requirements on the drivers to 'pull over' until the mid 90s. Back in the days, blue flags were not normally required for overtaking as the differential between lap times was immense. It was only on road circuits and such that slower cars caused much of a problem.
We saw a week ago how cars ignoring the needs of their faster brethren could give an unfair advantage to those fighting for the lead. It would be fair to say that LH was depending on an unimpeded tour to the end. It was clear that he could have gone much faster than the RB, as indeed he did once through the chicane of the two fighting cars. So in one way he brought it on himself. On the other hand, with just three engines available, it is part of racing.
I'm for blue flags. Those who are being lapped are in a different race.
Eric Mc said:
But I'm not for back markers deliberately slowing, spoiling their own race and leaping out of the way on pain of a penalty.
And herein lies the problem. F1 currently has a blue-flag nanny state which is detrimental to the midfield race.If the fastest drivers have racecraft it's of benefit to let them prove it, by passing slower cars through skill and/or DRS.
sparta6 said:
Eric Mc said:
But I'm not for back markers deliberately slowing, spoiling their own race and leaping out of the way on pain of a penalty.
And herein lies the problem. F1 currently has a blue-flag nanny state which is detrimental to the midfield race.If the fastest drivers have racecraft it's of benefit to let them prove it, by passing slower cars through skill and/or DRS.
If the blue flag rule is removed, it opens up a possible nightmare.
Maybe they could have a couple of designated blue flag overtake points on the track such that both drivers know when and where to pass ?
sparta6 said:
Eric Mc said:
But I'm not for back markers deliberately slowing, spoiling their own race and leaping out of the way on pain of a penalty.
And herein lies the problem. F1 currently has a blue-flag nanny state which is detrimental to the midfield race.If the fastest drivers have racecraft it's of benefit to let them prove it, by passing slower cars through skill and/or DRS.
sparta6 said:
Yes. And let's not forget that it was a pesky waved blue flag which contributed to Moss ending his career, whilst trying to unlap himself on Graham Hill.
Blue Flags are a distracting liability at full race pace.
moot, as cars about to be unlapped don't get blue flagged in F1 anymoreBlue Flags are a distracting liability at full race pace.
& if you can't observe flags at full pace, whether blue, yellow, black or red ...then frankly, you shouldn't be racing in karts, let alone F1
angrymoby said:
& if you can't observe flags at full pace, whether blue, yellow, black or red ...then frankly, you shouldn't be racing in karts, let alone F1
Are you speaking from personal experience ?There are plenty of current F1 drivers who don't see blue flags and/or don't act upon them, while they are busy in the zone and in battle.
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