Official 2021 Spanish Grand Prix Thread **SPOILERS**
Discussion
oyster said:
I think history may be very kind to Nico Rosberg.
He beat one 7-time champion 3 from 3 and beat another 7(8)-time champion 1 from 4.
Imagine a parallel universe where Hamilton stayed at McLaren - we could be talking about Rosberg on the brink of an 8th title.
He was also in with a shout until the last race of 2014 where he had engine trouble. Had it been :Lewis' engine that suffered he'd ne 2014 WDC & Lewis would be raging as Nico smugly tossed a hat his way. He beat one 7-time champion 3 from 3 and beat another 7(8)-time champion 1 from 4.
Imagine a parallel universe where Hamilton stayed at McLaren - we could be talking about Rosberg on the brink of an 8th title.
Exige77 said:
kiseca said:
Gad-Westy said:
stemll said:
Not sure your last statement holds up.
Hamilton's teammates have 4 championships between them as did Schumacher's compared to 9 for Prost's teammates and 7 for Senna's. Senna had 3 champions as teammates, Prost had 5.
Hamilton - Alonso (2), Rosberg(1), Button(1)
Prost - Lauda(3), Senna (3), Rosberg(1), Mansell(1), Hill(1).
Senna - Prost(4), Hakkinen(2), Hill(1)
Schumacher - Piquet (3), Rosberg(1)
Fangio - Farina (Moss was no slouch either but the less said about the rest, the better)
Prost certainly did it the hard way didn't he?!Hamilton's teammates have 4 championships between them as did Schumacher's compared to 9 for Prost's teammates and 7 for Senna's. Senna had 3 champions as teammates, Prost had 5.
Hamilton - Alonso (2), Rosberg(1), Button(1)
Prost - Lauda(3), Senna (3), Rosberg(1), Mansell(1), Hill(1).
Senna - Prost(4), Hakkinen(2), Hill(1)
Schumacher - Piquet (3), Rosberg(1)
Fangio - Farina (Moss was no slouch either but the less said about the rest, the better)
MS was way past his sell by date and NR needed a super human effort and a bit of luck to beat Hamilton.
NR was a very good driver but not in the same bracket as the many multiple WDCs.
Deesee said:
That is a stunning statistic and really makes you wonder given the 3:1 win ratio. Spain and Italy will have skewed it, but you do have to feel for Max. 
If I was Mercedes I would by now be deeply concerned at the way Red Bull are able to consistently jump them at the start. No point qualifying on pole if you are already second going into Turn 2.
RonaldMcDonaldAteMyCat said:
Don't think it's the car, it's Hamilton leaving the door open in Italy and Spain.
Quite possibly - still a concern for the team (sorry, I didn't make it clear I was talking about "Mercedes" holistically). It was 2016 when Hamilton kept making poor starts and as a result lost the championship ... how many times did Rosberg jump him that year? Flooble said:
Deesee said:
That is a stunning statistic and really makes you wonder given the 3:1 win ratio. Spain and Italy will have skewed it, but you do have to feel for Max. If I was Mercedes I would by now be deeply concerned at the way Red Bull are able to consistently jump them at the start. No point qualifying on pole if you are already second going into Turn 2.
Deesee said:
Off topic here...
But Max’s basic was less than Dani’s basic, although it was more attractive as performance lead, WCC points = big euros, up to 20+ million pa.
Dani ran from the fight, pure and simple, and went to Renault on a fantastic package financially & ended up in legal action against his advisor in what was a pretty poor car.
KIV he’s on less money now at McLaren than he was at red bull, and frankly has lost 2 seasons at Renault, and perhaps Lando on a 10th of the cash has the measure of him.
He did not have the credentials of a Prost that left McLaren, to me talented driver but lacks the awareness to be a champion...
C'mon Deesee... few things in life are ever really 'pure and simple'. There was plenty of conflict in DR's decision - it was after all a very big decision.But Max’s basic was less than Dani’s basic, although it was more attractive as performance lead, WCC points = big euros, up to 20+ million pa.
Dani ran from the fight, pure and simple, and went to Renault on a fantastic package financially & ended up in legal action against his advisor in what was a pretty poor car.
KIV he’s on less money now at McLaren than he was at red bull, and frankly has lost 2 seasons at Renault, and perhaps Lando on a 10th of the cash has the measure of him.
He did not have the credentials of a Prost that left McLaren, to me talented driver but lacks the awareness to be a champion...
Max was effectively paid more. The fact the basic was less is irrelevant.
And if we're realistic, from inside the team DR would have been able to pick up on all sorts of subtle differences in attitude and treatment that we would have no clue about on the outside. Short of pointing at something obvious like having a pitstop fluffed every single race to nobble a driver, we're basically blind as to what really goes on.
We don't know all the facts and never will. DR has said what he has said and we either believe him or we don't. Personally I think it's daft to believe he 'ran away' from the fight.. Why would he do that? Few racing drivers have that mentality and certainly not those as willing to attack for places as DR. I find it far easier to believe he (like most F1 drivers..) wanted a shot one day at a title. That means being number one pretty much, which meant it was time to career sidestep as there was nowhere else with a top drive immediately available.
There’s some proper over thinking and skullduggery hopers on this post, I’m not an RB fan but DR got dumped because he wasn’t “all that” or marketable, Max is just faster. Horner IS a shrewd operator and one of the best, he’s not some front of camera type controlled by evil overlords. Perez is the real deal and once he’s in the groove will be scoring points. They are ruthless but that’s F1.
The team are successful and challenging Merc, the difference is Hamilton.
The team are successful and challenging Merc, the difference is Hamilton.
RonaldMcDonaldAteMyCat said:
Don't think it's the car, it's Hamilton leaving the door open in Italy and Spain.
In Italy Max literally knocked Hamilton out of the way in the first corner. In Spain he similarly gave him no room and would have collided if Hamilton hadn't run off the track to avoid him. In both cases no action was taken by the stewards. If it had been the other way round RB would have been screaming blue murder.I suspect at some point in the future, Max will get what he deserves and we'll see how well he copes then.
Boom78 said:
There’s some proper over thinking and skullduggery hopers on this post, I’m not an RB fan but DR got dumped because he wasn’t “all that” or marketable, Max is just faster. Horner IS a shrewd operator and one of the best, he’s not some front of camera type controlled by evil overlords. Perez is the real deal and once he’s in the groove will be scoring points. They are ruthless but that’s F1.
The team are successful and challenging Merc, the difference is Hamilton.
Max is more marketable. That is proven outright, we can (during normal times..) see the size of his fanbase.The team are successful and challenging Merc, the difference is Hamilton.
Other than fan and frankly media over excitement, I havent seen any actual evidence of his supposed pace advantage over DR when they were team mates.
I don't think DR was dumped at all, he just wasn't clung on to as desperately as golden boy max. Not because of speed, but image and marketability.
No driver on that second seat has come close to DR since. Very much doubt Perez will - unless someone does some basic maths and fails to adjust for dnfs.
jm doc said:
In Italy Max literally knocked Hamilton out of the way in the first corner. In Spain he similarly gave him no room and would have collided if Hamilton hadn't run off the track to avoid him. In both cases no action was taken by the stewards. If it had been the other way round RB would have been screaming blue murder.
I suspect at some point in the future, Max will get what he deserves and we'll see how well he copes then.
In Italy Hamilton allowed Max space to his left right off the start, well before T1, when he could have covered it off. In Spain he didn't cover off Max on the run down to T1. In both, Verstappen took the racing line in the first corner and bears no blame, as far as I can see. I suspect at some point in the future, Max will get what he deserves and we'll see how well he copes then.
No doubt this season we'll have at least one controversial bash up between them, though.
Boom78 said:
There’s some proper over thinking and skullduggery hopers on this post, I’m not an RB fan but DR got dumped because he wasn’t “all that” or marketable, Max is just faster. Horner IS a shrewd operator and one of the best, he’s not some front of camera type controlled by evil overlords. Perez is the real deal and once he’s in the groove will be scoring points. They are ruthless but that’s F1.
The team are successful and challenging Merc, the difference is Hamilton.
Hmmm... DR got dumped because Horner believed Kvyat was a better bet? Or Perez was the plan all along? C’mon fella. It’s widely reported why he left, even if we speculate on the finer points of why, the basics of it were the team backed Max and rightly so but the mugged off DR. They’ve been paying for it ever since.The team are successful and challenging Merc, the difference is Hamilton.
Following the news breaking, Horner showed voiced his surprise and disbelief that he would leave RedBull for Renault. DR was not dumped.
HighwayStar said:
Boom78 said:
There’s some proper over thinking and skullduggery hopers on this post, I’m not an RB fan but DR got dumped because he wasn’t “all that” or marketable, Max is just faster. Horner IS a shrewd operator and one of the best, he’s not some front of camera type controlled by evil overlords. Perez is the real deal and once he’s in the groove will be scoring points. They are ruthless but that’s F1.
The team are successful and challenging Merc, the difference is Hamilton.
Hmmm... DR got dumped because Horner believed Kvyat was a better bet? Or Perez was the plan all along? C’mon fella. It’s widely reported why he left, even if we speculate on the finer points of why, the basics of it were the team backed Max and rightly so but the mugged off DR. They’ve been paying for it ever since.The team are successful and challenging Merc, the difference is Hamilton.
Following the news breaking, Horner showed voiced his surprise and disbelief that he would leave RedBull for Renault. DR was not dumped.
Graveworm said:
HighwayStar said:
Boom78 said:
There’s some proper over thinking and skullduggery hopers on this post, I’m not an RB fan but DR got dumped because he wasn’t “all that” or marketable, Max is just faster. Horner IS a shrewd operator and one of the best, he’s not some front of camera type controlled by evil overlords. Perez is the real deal and once he’s in the groove will be scoring points. They are ruthless but that’s F1.
The team are successful and challenging Merc, the difference is Hamilton.
Hmmm... DR got dumped because Horner believed Kvyat was a better bet? Or Perez was the plan all along? C’mon fella. It’s widely reported why he left, even if we speculate on the finer points of why, the basics of it were the team backed Max and rightly so but the mugged off DR. They’ve been paying for it ever since.The team are successful and challenging Merc, the difference is Hamilton.
Following the news breaking, Horner showed voiced his surprise and disbelief that he would leave RedBull for Renault. DR was not dumped.
RonaldMcDonaldAteMyCat said:
jm doc said:
In Italy Max literally knocked Hamilton out of the way in the first corner. In Spain he similarly gave him no room and would have collided if Hamilton hadn't run off the track to avoid him. In both cases no action was taken by the stewards. If it had been the other way round RB would have been screaming blue murder.
I suspect at some point in the future, Max will get what he deserves and we'll see how well he copes then.
In Italy Hamilton allowed Max space to his left right off the start, well before T1, when he could have covered it off. In Spain he didn't cover off Max on the run down to T1. In both, Verstappen took the racing line in the first corner and bears no blame, as far as I can see. I suspect at some point in the future, Max will get what he deserves and we'll see how well he copes then.
No doubt this season we'll have at least one controversial bash up between them, though.
HighwayStar said:
Ricciardo leaving when he did was not foreseen by RedBull. They didn’t account for it. It wasn’t what they wanted.
Agreed, but I have very little sympathy for the RB team if they were caught out and upset that he left.They should have offered him the right deal to stay in the first place.
They would have been doing a hell of a lot better as a team over the last 2 full seasons, plus these 4 races in 2021 if they had.
Boom78 said:
Horner IS a shrewd operator and one of the best, he’s not some front of camera type controlled by evil overlords.
I agree with your first statement. I disagree with your second. He is media friendly, Spice girl married, articulate Sky tart controlled utterly by Helmut Marko.
Still good at his job - both in running the team and in getting Red Bull coverage and visibility in the media.
Just my perspective.
I see the thread has defended into waffle;e then? 
If you're excluding it to the time they were team mates you're talking about Max the kid. Anyone who tries to claim Ricciardo is on the same level as Verstappen is on clod cuckoo land. Ricciardo was offered everything he wanted contract wise and he still ran away to be a big fish in a small pond.
As for Max's moves on Lewis in the first corners-he's just doing what Lewis has done for the last seven years-the kid's learning! The question is why does Lewis let him by not moving to protect the inside line? Could he have moved to cover him? Is he being pragmatic in knowing the Red Bull is faster to get it's tyres up to temp but then burns them out so he can get him later?
I do actually think both times it's happened that Hamilton was mugged a bit and didn't expect it-certainly in Italy.
It's going to be interesting seeing how he does it moving forward.
Incidentally, I had Monaco down as a Red Bull track but heard someone say yesterday it was actually suited better to Mercedes.
TheDeuce said:
Other than fan and frankly media over excitement, I havent seen any actual evidence of his supposed pace advantage over DR when they were team mates.
I don't think DR was dumped at all, he just wasn't clung on to as desperately as golden boy max. Not because of speed, but image and marketability.
You don't see any evidence of Max's superiority over Ricciardo? Do you watch with your eyes closed every weekend? Not listen to every pundit wax lyrical about the best two drivers in F1 battling it out and not reaching the conclusion one of them is Ricciardo?I don't think DR was dumped at all, he just wasn't clung on to as desperately as golden boy max. Not because of speed, but image and marketability.
If you're excluding it to the time they were team mates you're talking about Max the kid. Anyone who tries to claim Ricciardo is on the same level as Verstappen is on clod cuckoo land. Ricciardo was offered everything he wanted contract wise and he still ran away to be a big fish in a small pond.
As for Max's moves on Lewis in the first corners-he's just doing what Lewis has done for the last seven years-the kid's learning! The question is why does Lewis let him by not moving to protect the inside line? Could he have moved to cover him? Is he being pragmatic in knowing the Red Bull is faster to get it's tyres up to temp but then burns them out so he can get him later?
I do actually think both times it's happened that Hamilton was mugged a bit and didn't expect it-certainly in Italy.
It's going to be interesting seeing how he does it moving forward.
Incidentally, I had Monaco down as a Red Bull track but heard someone say yesterday it was actually suited better to Mercedes.
Edited by LaurasOtherHalf on Wednesday 12th May 07:59
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