Lewis Hamilton G.O.A.T. ?
Discussion
I will write one post then never revisit this thread.
Debating the 'greatest' when you factor in eras and challenges does make things difficult. However its a competition. So a 70s driver competed against 20-odd other drivers from the same era, all with the same approximate level of physical training and mental expectation. However no-one in the 70s won 7 or 8 championships and 96 victories.
Hamilton has won the most. That makes him the greatest. Its quite simple. To argue that point is irrelevant, facts speak from themselves. Everyone else has had 15 years to get to work and try harder to improve beyond Hamiltons level. They haven't.
He may have had the best car or may not. He made the choices to be in those cars. Perhaps he was fortunate and made the right choices. But consistently making the right choices and more often than not comfortably outperforming your team mate in the same car shows its certainly not luck. Lucky 96 times? You must accept its skill.
I am not a Hamilton fan, but the one thing I really appreciate about him, is he's won without really any accusations of foul play or unsportsmanship.
For example, Schumacher blatantly cheated his way to several of his victories and even championships. Undeniably. Therefore, under the rule that if you win by cheating, you're a cheat not a winner, Schumacher can never be called great because there was always a whiff of foul play. Same with Senna and Prost. All winners will have people question certain things but I think Hamilton has won while being cleaner and fairer than the average driver. Factor in that he seems a decent human who can think beyond himself and wants to make things better for others, and has reached this point through his own graft against the odds, makes it really clear that he is undoubtably the greatest of all time. Senna was close, but he was nasty when he wanted to be, he blurred the lines of fair on many occasion. He was of the generation that after a race he often physically couldnt stand, and while he was undeniably a great and gifted beyond reason in car control, he won 2 WC. There's no competition. Well done Lewis.
Side note, the real GOAT is Damon Hill.
Debating the 'greatest' when you factor in eras and challenges does make things difficult. However its a competition. So a 70s driver competed against 20-odd other drivers from the same era, all with the same approximate level of physical training and mental expectation. However no-one in the 70s won 7 or 8 championships and 96 victories.
Hamilton has won the most. That makes him the greatest. Its quite simple. To argue that point is irrelevant, facts speak from themselves. Everyone else has had 15 years to get to work and try harder to improve beyond Hamiltons level. They haven't.
He may have had the best car or may not. He made the choices to be in those cars. Perhaps he was fortunate and made the right choices. But consistently making the right choices and more often than not comfortably outperforming your team mate in the same car shows its certainly not luck. Lucky 96 times? You must accept its skill.
I am not a Hamilton fan, but the one thing I really appreciate about him, is he's won without really any accusations of foul play or unsportsmanship.
For example, Schumacher blatantly cheated his way to several of his victories and even championships. Undeniably. Therefore, under the rule that if you win by cheating, you're a cheat not a winner, Schumacher can never be called great because there was always a whiff of foul play. Same with Senna and Prost. All winners will have people question certain things but I think Hamilton has won while being cleaner and fairer than the average driver. Factor in that he seems a decent human who can think beyond himself and wants to make things better for others, and has reached this point through his own graft against the odds, makes it really clear that he is undoubtably the greatest of all time. Senna was close, but he was nasty when he wanted to be, he blurred the lines of fair on many occasion. He was of the generation that after a race he often physically couldnt stand, and while he was undeniably a great and gifted beyond reason in car control, he won 2 WC. There's no competition. Well done Lewis.
Side note, the real GOAT is Damon Hill.
Jake899 said:
A 70s driver competed against 20-odd other drivers from the same era, all with the same approximate level of physical training and mental expectation. However no-one in the 70s won 7 or 8 championships and 96 victories.
Hamilton has won the most. That makes him the greatest. Its quite simple. To argue that point is irrelevant, facts speak from themselves. Everyone else has had 15 years to get to work and try harder to improve beyond Hamiltons level. They haven't.
Success is not the only measure of greatness. It's an important factor, but not the defining one.Hamilton has won the most. That makes him the greatest. Its quite simple. To argue that point is irrelevant, facts speak from themselves. Everyone else has had 15 years to get to work and try harder to improve beyond Hamiltons level. They haven't.
Damon Hill won more races and championships than Stirling Moss but I'm sure nobody, not least Damon himself, would claim Damon to be greater than Stirling.
vdn said:
DanL said:
Maximus_Meridius101 said:
https://talksport.com/sport/motorsport/856685/lewi...
Especially when the opposition is ordered to let him win.
Ordered to return a place, not let him win. You can argue whether that decision was fair or not...Especially when the opposition is ordered to let him win.
"Ordered to let him win" ...
the thicko's are out in force.There was no such order. And Max would ignore such an order if it were given.
People are unable to be rational
Muzzer79 said:
Jake899 said:
A 70s driver competed against 20-odd other drivers from the same era, all with the same approximate level of physical training and mental expectation. However no-one in the 70s won 7 or 8 championships and 96 victories.
Hamilton has won the most. That makes him the greatest. Its quite simple. To argue that point is irrelevant, facts speak from themselves. Everyone else has had 15 years to get to work and try harder to improve beyond Hamiltons level. They haven't.
Success is not the only measure of greatness. It's an important factor, but not the defining one.Hamilton has won the most. That makes him the greatest. Its quite simple. To argue that point is irrelevant, facts speak from themselves. Everyone else has had 15 years to get to work and try harder to improve beyond Hamiltons level. They haven't.
Damon Hill won more races and championships than Stirling Moss but I'm sure nobody, not least Damon himself, would claim Damon to be greater than Stirling.
Edited by KR158 on Monday 29th March 11:27
Maximus_Meridius101 said:
ChocolateFrog said:
And yes, he's the GOAT.
The 300 wins by British drivers and he has 96 of them is just astonishing.
https://talksport.com/sport/motorsport/856685/lewis-hamilton-wins-bahrain-grand-prix-max-verstappen/The 300 wins by British drivers and he has 96 of them is just astonishing.
Especially when the opposition is ordered to let him win.
You come across as a petulant child, how many years have you been watching F1? For me it is around 45 years.
Maximus_Meridius101 said:
The biggest issue I have with this, is that a true great ( and there have been a few ) will outdrive a ( relatively) poor car. For example, the engineers / team will say, “that car is probably good for P4” and the truly great driver poles it. This has been a marker of true greatness for ever. Hamilton has never managed this feat.
Conveniently forgetting Singapore 2018? Where he poled it and produced a time about 1 whole second faster than the car was deemed capable of? Many other examples as well.C350Akra said:
Maximus_Meridius101 said:
The biggest issue I have with this, is that a true great ( and there have been a few ) will outdrive a ( relatively) poor car. For example, the engineers / team will say, “that car is probably good for P4” and the truly great driver poles it. This has been a marker of true greatness for ever. Hamilton has never managed this feat.
Conveniently forgetting Singapore 2018? Where he poled it and produced a time about 1 whole second faster than the car was deemed capable of? Many other examples as well.I think Sparta has a new account again.
Muzzer79 said:
C350Akra said:
Maximus_Meridius101 said:
The biggest issue I have with this, is that a true great ( and there have been a few ) will outdrive a ( relatively) poor car. For example, the engineers / team will say, “that car is probably good for P4” and the truly great driver poles it. This has been a marker of true greatness for ever. Hamilton has never managed this feat.
Conveniently forgetting Singapore 2018? Where he poled it and produced a time about 1 whole second faster than the car was deemed capable of? Many other examples as well.I think Sparta has a new account again.
Like SpartaX and DeltonS, it was clear responding and getting a reasoned, sensible discussion wasn’t going to happen.
Northernboy said:
Not for the same reasons as him I hope. Sir Jackie seems to have a real issue with Hamilton that he doesn’t have with any of the others.
The Sun are rehashing his comments from October because they're The Sun. Jackie is a proponent of the Can't Compare Eras school of thought, and also feels the long period of Merc dominance has flattered him. Beyond that, everything just seems to be ad-homs piled on the guy, opinionated though he is.He still felt Lewis was deserving of a Knighthood though.
Been a huge fan of him since meeting him at Brands in his FRenault days. He actualy spoke to me!!!
One of the greats yes, and the most sucessful of all time. And the best of this generation. But I always think its hard to compare drivers accross generations.
Its a bit like the greatest sportman of all time TV programme from 20 odd years ago.Muhammad ali won- a worthy winner for sure, but how do you compare accross sports disciplines?? The same with generations of F1.
I dont have the GOAT. I have a pool of absolute greats whom I love to see race. Lewis is absolutely in this group. The others are my opinion, and are not relevent to the discusion!!
One of the greats yes, and the most sucessful of all time. And the best of this generation. But I always think its hard to compare drivers accross generations.
Its a bit like the greatest sportman of all time TV programme from 20 odd years ago.Muhammad ali won- a worthy winner for sure, but how do you compare accross sports disciplines?? The same with generations of F1.
I dont have the GOAT. I have a pool of absolute greats whom I love to see race. Lewis is absolutely in this group. The others are my opinion, and are not relevent to the discusion!!
ELUSIVEJIM said:
The toughest track in F1 especially in the past is Monaco.
In 10 years of being in F1 Ayrton Senna won 6 Monaco GP's and it could have been 8 when he was clearly catching Prost in 1984 and when he lost concentration in 1988 while miles ahead.
To me that is a GOAT.
Monaco is a terrible indicator, you can drive several seconds off the pace and it's still impossible for anyone to pass you.In 10 years of being in F1 Ayrton Senna won 6 Monaco GP's and it could have been 8 when he was clearly catching Prost in 1984 and when he lost concentration in 1988 while miles ahead.
To me that is a GOAT.
In 1988 Senna could have won, sure, but he'd have had to avoided driving into the wall whilst under absolutely no pressure. One of his worst ever days.
ELUSIVEJIM said:
The toughest track in F1 especially in the past is Monaco.
In 10 years of being in F1 Ayrton Senna won 6 Monaco GP's and it could have been 8 when he was clearly catching Prost in 1984 and when he lost concentration in 1988 while miles ahead.
To me that is a GOAT.
Stefan Bellof was catching Senna and Prost at a faster rate and would have beaten them both in his NA Tyrrell in those conditions had the race not been stopped.In 10 years of being in F1 Ayrton Senna won 6 Monaco GP's and it could have been 8 when he was clearly catching Prost in 1984 and when he lost concentration in 1988 while miles ahead.
To me that is a GOAT.
wevster said:
Donington in the rain is also a tough race. Lewis has never won at Donington therefore he can’t be the GOAT.
I was there at Donington in 1993. There were no big screens back then and the cars were of course incredibly noisy, so there was no way to hear any commentary. It was really odd to see Senna about 5th on the first lap and then in the lead with a gap on the next.
jsf said:
ELUSIVEJIM said:
The toughest track in F1 especially in the past is Monaco.
In 10 years of being in F1 Ayrton Senna won 6 Monaco GP's and it could have been 8 when he was clearly catching Prost in 1984 and when he lost concentration in 1988 while miles ahead.
To me that is a GOAT.
Stefan Bellof was catching Senna and Prost at a faster rate and would have beaten them both in his NA Tyrrell in those conditions had the race not been stopped.In 10 years of being in F1 Ayrton Senna won 6 Monaco GP's and it could have been 8 when he was clearly catching Prost in 1984 and when he lost concentration in 1988 while miles ahead.
To me that is a GOAT.
ELUSIVEJIM said:
I am sure you are aware that a NA car would be much easier to drive in horrendous conditions plus the Tyrrell was illegal and banned from the Championship.
I'm well aware of both, hence why i made the comment about it being NA, and the Tyrrell was not Illegal, but that's politics in F1 for ya.ELUSIVEJIM said:
jsf said:
ELUSIVEJIM said:
The toughest track in F1 especially in the past is Monaco.
In 10 years of being in F1 Ayrton Senna won 6 Monaco GP's and it could have been 8 when he was clearly catching Prost in 1984 and when he lost concentration in 1988 while miles ahead.
To me that is a GOAT.
Stefan Bellof was catching Senna and Prost at a faster rate and would have beaten them both in his NA Tyrrell in those conditions had the race not been stopped.In 10 years of being in F1 Ayrton Senna won 6 Monaco GP's and it could have been 8 when he was clearly catching Prost in 1984 and when he lost concentration in 1988 while miles ahead.
To me that is a GOAT.
Being fast there doesn’t make you fast at say Spa, or Suzuka.
Senna could undoubtedly wring the neck of a dog of a car (the 1994 early season Williams being the paradigm). But he wasn’t the only driver who could do that.
None of that is to diminish Senna as a driver - it’s just to say that picking one narrow criterion isn’t the right way to identify a GOAT.
Maximus_Meridius101 said:
When he had a leading car, and a better team mate ( Rosberg ) he lost, that puts another nail in the coffin, as far as ‘is he the G.O.A.T.’ argument goes.
From memory, Ham comprehensively beat Rosberg over their time as team mates.Sepang 2016 has a lot to do with Rosberg winning a title with luck. And then conveniently retiring.
You seem to eliminate Ham from the "greats" because he rarely had a P4 only car. As ever, the cream rises to the top.
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