The Official 2018 Singapore Grand Prix Thread **SPOILERS**
Discussion
NFC 85 Vette said:
There's a lot of what ifs, but in each era / decade, there have been drivers who have dragged a car that was an embarrassment to the team, to a finishing position it wasn't going to achieve in 'regular' hands. Senna in his late McLaren years when the car was lacking the technology of the Williams, had to make the difference up in his driving. Schumacher in his early years at Ferrari, and Alonso the last few years at McLaren - both took poor cars and got results out of them. A good result didn't necessarily mean a win; it just meant dragging a donkey of a car further up the grid than it ought to be.
This is probably the best answer to that and the one I agree with. NFC 85 Vette said:
There's a lot of what ifs, but in each era / decade, there have been drivers who have dragged a car that was an embarrassment to the team, to a finishing position it wasn't going to achieve in 'regular' hands. Senna in his late McLaren years when the car was lacking the technology of the Williams, had to make the difference up in his driving. Schumacher in his early years at Ferrari, and Alonso the last few years at McLaren - both took poor cars and got results out of them. A good result didn't necessarily mean a win; it just meant dragging a donkey of a car further up the grid than it ought to be.
Let’s not forget Hamilton in 2009 too. That car was an absolute dog for most of the year, and he comprehensively outscored his teammate NFC 85 Vette said:
There's a lot of what ifs, but in each era / decade, there have been drivers who have dragged a car that was an embarrassment to the team, to a finishing position it wasn't going to achieve in 'regular' hands. Senna in his late McLaren years when the car was lacking the technology of the Williams, had to make the difference up in his driving. Schumacher in his early years at Ferrari, and Alonso the last few years at McLaren - both took poor cars and got results out of them. A good result didn't necessarily mean a win; it just meant dragging a donkey of a car further up the grid than it ought to be.
+1The body language of a car hints at where great drivers are finding the limit, plus the gap to their team mate.
The amount of hard bumping and vibration around on the McLaren's stiff springs and work rate at the wheel and pedals and stick from Senna was quite astonishing. That was a tough battle for him against the techno supreme Williams cars
sparta6 said:
The first half of the year it was a dog, and Lewis scored 12 points during it's dog phase IIRC
Still wasn’t exactly great the second half, wins, podiums but also retirements....tell me how many podiums Heiki got.........I’d say Hamilton definately outperformed his car....and teammate by miles
I think it is harder these days for a driver to potentially make such an obvious difference as a couple of decades ago.
Senna was outstanding in the 1993 McLaren, but it is also worth noting that he had a team mate for the first half of the year, Michael Andretti, who appeared hopelessly outclassed in f1 and made Senna look even more amazing.
Once Andretti was replaced, Senna’s new team mate, Mika Hakkinen, out-qualified the bewildered Senna first time out.
In more recent times, Hamilton has embarrassed the field from time to time, most notably in the wet. His 2008 Silverstone drive must have made the others wonder whey they even showed up. His wet weather poles in the last 2 seasons have been, as a fan of pure driving genius, an honour to witness.
Senna was outstanding in the 1993 McLaren, but it is also worth noting that he had a team mate for the first half of the year, Michael Andretti, who appeared hopelessly outclassed in f1 and made Senna look even more amazing.
Once Andretti was replaced, Senna’s new team mate, Mika Hakkinen, out-qualified the bewildered Senna first time out.
In more recent times, Hamilton has embarrassed the field from time to time, most notably in the wet. His 2008 Silverstone drive must have made the others wonder whey they even showed up. His wet weather poles in the last 2 seasons have been, as a fan of pure driving genius, an honour to witness.
paulguitar said:
I think it is harder these days for a driver to potentially make such an obvious difference as a couple of decades ago.
Senna was outstanding in the 1993 McLaren, but it is also worth noting that he had a team mate for the first half of the year, Michael Andretti, who appeared hopelessly outclassed in f1 and made Senna look even more amazing.
Once Andretti was replaced, Senna’s new team mate, Mika Hakkinen, out-qualified the bewildered Senna first time out.
In more recent times, Hamilton has embarrassed the field from time to time, most notably in the wet. His 2008 Silverstone drive must have made the others wonder whey they even showed up. His wet weather poles in the last 2 seasons have been, as a fan of pure driving genius, an honour to witness.
There’s a lot of truth in this. These days cars are engineered within an inch of their lives and drivers are groomed from about 8 to be racing machines.....no Stone is left unturned in terms of preparation, fitness etc, so naturally the margins are fine. Senna was outstanding in the 1993 McLaren, but it is also worth noting that he had a team mate for the first half of the year, Michael Andretti, who appeared hopelessly outclassed in f1 and made Senna look even more amazing.
Once Andretti was replaced, Senna’s new team mate, Mika Hakkinen, out-qualified the bewildered Senna first time out.
In more recent times, Hamilton has embarrassed the field from time to time, most notably in the wet. His 2008 Silverstone drive must have made the others wonder whey they even showed up. His wet weather poles in the last 2 seasons have been, as a fan of pure driving genius, an honour to witness.
Go back 20, 30, 40 years and the margins were greater and pure talent was allowed to shine through
sparta6 said:
pgh said:
You mean over-drive the car, right? 
I mean outdrive the car It will be really interesting to see if he can get himself together long-term and deliver consistently. Certainly, up to this point, there has been rather more ‘overdriving’ on display than ‘outperforming’ the car.
paulguitar said:
I think Max has the innate talent to potentially produce some performances in the Senna/Schumacher/Hamilton league, but sadly he does not seem to be learning from his mistakes up to now, or perhaps even accepting them.
It will be really interesting to see if he can get himself together long-term and deliver consistently. Certainly, up to this point, there has been rather more ‘overdriving’ on display than ‘outperforming’ the car.
This.It will be really interesting to see if he can get himself together long-term and deliver consistently. Certainly, up to this point, there has been rather more ‘overdriving’ on display than ‘outperforming’ the car.
paulguitar said:
Once Andretti was replaced, Senna’s new team mate, Mika Hakkinen, out-qualified the bewildered Senna first time out.
.
100% Agree with that and people forget that Senna before Mika never really had a driver which was fully focus on qualification but mainly on race pace. That is also one of the reasons why Prost has higher fastest lap in race than Senna. .
There are very few in the F1 field that have shown anything to me to make me think they are in the same class as Hamilton and Alonso.
Vettel has his moments and comes closest of the current crop but his propensity to lose it under pressure means he's not good enough.
I just look back at 2014, '15 and 16 and would the championships have been different if it was any other driver in Rosberg's seat? The only one I think would have been Alonso.
Anyone else who is merely very good, Riciardo, Vettel, Verstappen, Raikonnen, any of them, I think we'd have probably seen the same result (2-1 to Hamilton).
Vettel has his moments and comes closest of the current crop but his propensity to lose it under pressure means he's not good enough.
I just look back at 2014, '15 and 16 and would the championships have been different if it was any other driver in Rosberg's seat? The only one I think would have been Alonso.
Anyone else who is merely very good, Riciardo, Vettel, Verstappen, Raikonnen, any of them, I think we'd have probably seen the same result (2-1 to Hamilton).
37chevy said:
Go back 20, 30, 40 years and the margins were greater and pure talent was allowed to shine through
What is it that they say (and it’s particulalrly true as sport gets ever more highly professional) ..... Hard work beats talent, when talent fails to work hard. I like the idea that talent alone isn’t enough and you have to make it all come together.
Hungrymc said:
What is it that they say (and it’s particulalrly true as sport gets ever more highly professional) ..... Hard work beats talent, when talent fails to work hard.
I like the idea that talent alone isn’t enough and you have to make it all come together.
Yup completely agree.I like the idea that talent alone isn’t enough and you have to make it all come together.
My point is comparing how the likes of Senna, clark and fangio destroyed the field compared to today is crazy.
In the days of fangio and Clark they were racing against half a field of semi pros and amateurs, when Senna was around the idea of sport science and driver programmes was in its infancy. These days the cream still rises to the top but the margins are much finer
LaurasOtherHalf said:
One thing I'm not certain of however is just how good CLc is? We've had plenty of supposed prodigies come through before and not be able to make it. Who's he beat? No one of note, yet...
Except for FP2 today, I'd say he has driven fabulously, far and above his team mate.Clockwork Cupcake said:
Really? On a number of occasions I've heard Brundle remark that Alonso has managed to drive at a pace far beyond what the car should manage / bring it home in a higher than expected place on merit / whatever, and he's not the only person who has said so.
Alonso is widely acknowledged* as being able to drive the wheels off a car, and as opposed to drivers which can only shine when the car is just right.
(* - outside of armchair experts)
Yes but it's just not "drive the wheels off" that wins championships.Alonso is widely acknowledged* as being able to drive the wheels off a car, and as opposed to drivers which can only shine when the car is just right.
(* - outside of armchair experts)
An armchair expert indeed..
Derek Smith said:
Who agrees with Karun? He reckoned that the reason Ferrari dumped Kimi was because they wanted a young challenger to test Vettel.
I believe Raikkonen has been placed at Sauber as a way for Ferrari to hedge their bets. Vettel is the yardstick and if Leclerc isn't measuring up they always have the option of putting Raikkonen in again if the constructors looks a possibility. Of course if Leclerc beats Vettel and he doesn't like it he might just leave in which case Raikkonen is one option to replace him/mentor Leclerc. Makes sense to keep him race ready.Jasandjules said:
LaurasOtherHalf said:
One thing I'm not certain of however is just how good CLc is? We've had plenty of supposed prodigies come through before and not be able to make it. Who's he beat? No one of note, yet...
Except for FP2 today, I'd say he has driven fabulously, far and above his team mate.LaurasOtherHalf said:
Jasandjules said:
LaurasOtherHalf said:
One thing I'm not certain of however is just how good CLc is? We've had plenty of supposed prodigies come through before and not be able to make it. Who's he beat? No one of note, yet...
Except for FP2 today, I'd say he has driven fabulously, far and above his team mate.Gassing Station | Formula 1 | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff