Discussion
Muzzer79 said:
In what way is it outdated?
Their model is similar to Mercedes’ and it works for them
They just need the right people and some time. Easier said than done, of course.
Ferrari is Italian, Mercedes is German. They are both prime examples of their respective countries' culture. They are a million miles apart in their approach to F1. In the modern era Ferrari have only flourished when a non-Italian was in charge. To me that says a lot.Their model is similar to Mercedes’ and it works for them
They just need the right people and some time. Easier said than done, of course.
KevinCamaroSS said:
Muzzer79 said:
In what way is it outdated?
Their model is similar to Mercedes’ and it works for them
They just need the right people and some time. Easier said than done, of course.
Ferrari is Italian, Mercedes is German. They are both prime examples of their respective countries' culture. They are a million miles apart in their approach to F1. In the modern era Ferrari have only flourished when a non-Italian was in charge. To me that says a lot.Their model is similar to Mercedes’ and it works for them
They just need the right people and some time. Easier said than done, of course.
I suppose you could say that what Luca did well was let a Frenchman and an Englishman run the team and kept the Italians - including himself - out of their way.. but I am still not convinced so much it is because they're Italian, but rather because it's Ferrari, it's a empire of sorts, everyone wants to be king and the political battles that result keep kicking the barstool out from under the team. Kind of like what happened to the mongols after Genghis died. It took a couple of generations, but eventually the infighting for power destroyed the empire.
kiseca said:
KevinCamaroSS said:
Muzzer79 said:
In what way is it outdated?
Their model is similar to Mercedes’ and it works for them
They just need the right people and some time. Easier said than done, of course.
Ferrari is Italian, Mercedes is German. They are both prime examples of their respective countries' culture. They are a million miles apart in their approach to F1. In the modern era Ferrari have only flourished when a non-Italian was in charge. To me that says a lot.Their model is similar to Mercedes’ and it works for them
They just need the right people and some time. Easier said than done, of course.
I suppose you could say that what Luca did well was let a Frenchman and an Englishman run the team and kept the Italians - including himself - out of their way.. but I am still not convinced so much it is because they're Italian, but rather because it's Ferrari, it's a empire of sorts, everyone wants to be king and the political battles that result keep kicking the barstool out from under the team. Kind of like what happened to the mongols after Genghis died. It took a couple of generations, but eventually the infighting for power destroyed the empire.
He wanted success and knew the traditional approach wouldn’t deliver. He gathered an international leadership team, set the direction and let then get on with it.
The results speak for themselves but success doesn’t last for ever. Things change. If you don’t evolve the trophies move to someone better.
HustleRussell said:
KevinCamaroSS said:
Mercedes is German
What bit of it? because it's not the Race Team or the PU Manufacturer. KevinCamaroSS said:
HustleRussell said:
KevinCamaroSS said:
Mercedes is German
What bit of it? because it's not the Race Team or the PU Manufacturer. They copied the Ron Dennis era McLaren model.
KevinCamaroSS said:
Muzzer79 said:
In what way is it outdated?
Their model is similar to Mercedes’ and it works for them
They just need the right people and some time. Easier said than done, of course.
Ferrari is Italian, Mercedes is German. They are both prime examples of their respective countries' culture. They are a million miles apart in their approach to F1. In the modern era Ferrari have only flourished when a non-Italian was in charge. To me that says a lot.Their model is similar to Mercedes’ and it works for them
They just need the right people and some time. Easier said than done, of course.
And to the 'is Mercedes German debate'.. on paper, yes.. in reality, not really. There is however something quite Germanic about their operation - and results. But then, the team is headed by an Austrian, that's close enough to being German right?
Exige77 said:
kiseca said:
KevinCamaroSS said:
Muzzer79 said:
In what way is it outdated?
Their model is similar to Mercedes’ and it works for them
They just need the right people and some time. Easier said than done, of course.
Ferrari is Italian, Mercedes is German. They are both prime examples of their respective countries' culture. They are a million miles apart in their approach to F1. In the modern era Ferrari have only flourished when a non-Italian was in charge. To me that says a lot.Their model is similar to Mercedes’ and it works for them
They just need the right people and some time. Easier said than done, of course.
I suppose you could say that what Luca did well was let a Frenchman and an Englishman run the team and kept the Italians - including himself - out of their way.. but I am still not convinced so much it is because they're Italian, but rather because it's Ferrari, it's a empire of sorts, everyone wants to be king and the political battles that result keep kicking the barstool out from under the team. Kind of like what happened to the mongols after Genghis died. It took a couple of generations, but eventually the infighting for power destroyed the empire.
He wanted success and knew the traditional approach wouldn’t deliver. He gathered an international leadership team, set the direction and let then get on with it.
The results speak for themselves but success doesn’t last for ever. Things change. If you don’t evolve the trophies move to someone better.
kiseca said:
Exige77 said:
kiseca said:
KevinCamaroSS said:
Muzzer79 said:
In what way is it outdated?
Their model is similar to Mercedes’ and it works for them
They just need the right people and some time. Easier said than done, of course.
Ferrari is Italian, Mercedes is German. They are both prime examples of their respective countries' culture. They are a million miles apart in their approach to F1. In the modern era Ferrari have only flourished when a non-Italian was in charge. To me that says a lot.Their model is similar to Mercedes’ and it works for them
They just need the right people and some time. Easier said than done, of course.
I suppose you could say that what Luca did well was let a Frenchman and an Englishman run the team and kept the Italians - including himself - out of their way.. but I am still not convinced so much it is because they're Italian, but rather because it's Ferrari, it's a empire of sorts, everyone wants to be king and the political battles that result keep kicking the barstool out from under the team. Kind of like what happened to the mongols after Genghis died. It took a couple of generations, but eventually the infighting for power destroyed the empire.
He wanted success and knew the traditional approach wouldn’t deliver. He gathered an international leadership team, set the direction and let then get on with it.
The results speak for themselves but success doesn’t last for ever. Things change. If you don’t evolve the trophies move to someone better.
Arsene and Alex both spring to mind
Fundoreen said:
A lot of these drivers seem to belong to the modern school of do it then apologise later.
Leclerc giving it profuse regrets was a bit annoying to see really and he is fast eroding any good will from this viewer.
I remember him berating himself in 2019(?) when he went into the wall at Baku and wondering how someone who rants "I am stupid" at himself could compete with someone like Max who seems to take the Schumacher "never wrong about anything, ever" approach.Leclerc giving it profuse regrets was a bit annoying to see really and he is fast eroding any good will from this viewer.
I wonder if it's a genuine self-deprication or if it's a Make Friends and Influence People way of ingratiating himself into a team when he has quite clearly f
ked up. It's harder to rant at someone who admits their mistakes than someone like Vettel who squirms like a worm when on the hook. And unlike, say, Grosjean, Leclerc punctuates his errors with great driving to the point where the charismatic veteran Vettel is now out of work and "stupid" LeClerc is defacto #1 at Ferrari in only his third year in F1.Edited by glazbagun on Tuesday 14th July 15:41
glazbagun said:
I remember him berating himself in 2019(?) when he went into the wall at Baku and wondering how someone who rants "I am stupid" at himself could compete with someone like Max who seems to take the Schumacher "never wrong about anything, ever" approach.
Yea.... Seb has that approach too - but somehow doesn't quite manage to pull it off. In Brazil last year when he drove in to LeClerc he was instantly on the radio 'what the **** is he doing!?', then 2 minutes later he's pulled his own ruined car over and is kicking pebbles around the side of the track, obviously frustrated that in addition to being the plonker that caused a crash, he was also the plonker that tried to claim it was someones else's fault And the time he crashed in to Stroll on the cool down lap.. And the time he deliberately drove in to Lewis whilst under VSC.. None of it was his fault, until the following day whe he conceded it might have been, but he's moved on from thinking about it
I'm really gonna miss him next year actually!
^^ and spinning then coming back onto the track into Stroll at Monza.
There is definitely something different with Vettel now compared to Vettel at Red Bull. At Red Bull there were a few run ins with Webber (multi 21, Turkey 2010 etc) where Vettel seemed to be purposely doing stuff and he was the bad guy. At Ferrari, it's mistakes and accidents, not taking others out on purpose (with the exception of driving into the side of Hamilton, but that was red mist taking over).
There is definitely something different with Vettel now compared to Vettel at Red Bull. At Red Bull there were a few run ins with Webber (multi 21, Turkey 2010 etc) where Vettel seemed to be purposely doing stuff and he was the bad guy. At Ferrari, it's mistakes and accidents, not taking others out on purpose (with the exception of driving into the side of Hamilton, but that was red mist taking over).
KevinCamaroSS said:
Ferrari is Italian, Mercedes is German. They are both prime examples of their respective countries' culture. They are a million miles apart in their approach to F1. In the modern era Ferrari have only flourished when a non-Italian was in charge. To me that says a lot.
So you are saying that Mercedes represents meticulous preparation and efficient deployment of well structured plans, and Ferrari naturally represents passion and an optimistic expectation that things will turn out great if they just want it to enough.I can't really argue with that.
The trouble is, I think it may take me until the end if my life to decide which of the two appeals to me most!
Roofless Toothless said:
KevinCamaroSS said:
Ferrari is Italian, Mercedes is German. They are both prime examples of their respective countries' culture. They are a million miles apart in their approach to F1. In the modern era Ferrari have only flourished when a non-Italian was in charge. To me that says a lot.
So you are saying that Mercedes represents meticulous preparation and efficient deployment of well structured plans, and Ferrari naturally represents passion and an optimistic expectation that things will turn out great if they just want it to enough.I can't really argue with that.
The trouble is, I think it may take me until the end if my life to decide which of the two appeals to me most!
Fundoreen said:
A lot of these drivers seem to belong to the modern school of do it then apologise later.
Leclerc giving it profuse regrets was a bit annoying to see really and he is fast eroding any good will from this viewer.
I’m alway very impressed by LeClerc on these occasions. To me he seems entirely genuine. I think the Americans call it ‘owning his mistakes’. But more importantly, he seems to learn from them. Leclerc giving it profuse regrets was a bit annoying to see really and he is fast eroding any good will from this viewer.
Some drivers repeat the same mistakes for a while, others for their entire career. It looks like LeClerc gives himself a hard time as a way of making sure he never does it again.
KevinCamaroSS said:
Roofless Toothless said:
KevinCamaroSS said:
Ferrari is Italian, Mercedes is German. They are both prime examples of their respective countries' culture. They are a million miles apart in their approach to F1. In the modern era Ferrari have only flourished when a non-Italian was in charge. To me that says a lot.
So you are saying that Mercedes represents meticulous preparation and efficient deployment of well structured plans, and Ferrari naturally represents passion and an optimistic expectation that things will turn out great if they just want it to enough.I can't really argue with that.
The trouble is, I think it may take me until the end if my life to decide which of the two appeals to me most!
HustleRussell said:
KevinCamaroSS said:
Roofless Toothless said:
KevinCamaroSS said:
Ferrari is Italian, Mercedes is German. They are both prime examples of their respective countries' culture. They are a million miles apart in their approach to F1. In the modern era Ferrari have only flourished when a non-Italian was in charge. To me that says a lot.
So you are saying that Mercedes represents meticulous preparation and efficient deployment of well structured plans, and Ferrari naturally represents passion and an optimistic expectation that things will turn out great if they just want it to enough.I can't really argue with that.
The trouble is, I think it may take me until the end if my life to decide which of the two appeals to me most!
My comments sparked this little side debate.. but my point was only that there is a major difference in culture between the two teams. That difference could exist between two teams operating out of factories next door to each other quite frankly.
Toto has nurtured a somewhat cutting edge culture at Mercedes, where bold ideas such as blame free team culture aren't just ideas, they're taken seriously and become a way of life in the team. He has managed to get 2000 people to care about a shared goal out of respect for one another's efforts - and every mistake is keenly self examined to ensure it can't happen again - which is naturally far more useful than sacking the person that made the mistake, and taking a chance that their replacement might not make the same kind of mistake.
I don't see the signs of things being quite so progressive at Ferrari.
Gassing Station | Formula 1 | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff