Official 2023 Australian Grand Prix Thread ***SPOILERS***

[Blib]

Red flags be damned. Let 'em race, I say.

If cars have to skirt around broken carbon, gravel or bits of driver then so be it.

Having to avoid Albon's wreckage, or Magnusen's tyre will be the same for everyone. Plus, if a driver clips the tyre just right he could 'ping' it off of the retaining wall and into the path of the chap behind.

What's not to like?

Edited by Blib on Monday 3rd April 09:54

[PhilAsia]

Good synopsis by PW @13:18 on the Sainz penalty

...and I'm blown away that he mentions me @19:22..... and is obviously correct in doing so

[eliot]

rscott said:

Let me know when F1TV supports UHD and HDR. Or Dolby Atmos audio.

What so when a car is somersaulting in a ball of flames you want to make sure you can hear the driver screaming through your overhead speakers?

[GiantCardboardPlato]

mat205125 said:

GiantCardboardPlato said:

All of these posts about not being allowed to change tyres under a red flag.

I don’t get it.

What is the problem that you are trying to solve?

For me, it's not about changing tyres under the red flag, its about that pit stop counting as the mandatory stop that the driver has to take during the race.

Yeah, but WHY is that something that you think ought to be prevented? What do you want to achieve?

what’s your view on pit stops under the safety car?

[GiantCardboardPlato]

Jonnny said:

mat205125 said:

GiantCardboardPlato said:

All of these posts about not being allowed to change tyres under a red flag.

I don’t get it.

What is the problem that you are trying to solve?

For me, it's not about changing tyres under the red flag, its about that pit stop counting as the mandatory stop that the driver has to take during the race.

This is my point too, you gain an advantage - when the race has effectively been stopped.

The race stops for everyone, and everyone can change tyres or repair their car. There is no advantage.

[thegreenhell]

Blib said:

Red flags be damned. Let 'em race, I say.

If cars have to skirt around broken carbon, gravel or bits of driver then so be it.

Having to avoid Albon's wreckage, or Magnusen's tyre will be the same for everyone. Plus, if a driver clips the tyre just right he could 'ping' it off of the retaining wall and into the path of the chap behind.

What's not to like?

Edited by Blib on Monday 3rd April 09:54

You know a marshal was killed here a few years ago by an errant F1 wheel, so that idea might not go down too well?

[TheDeuce]

GiantCardboardPlato said:

Jonnny said:

mat205125 said:

GiantCardboardPlato said:

All of these posts about not being allowed to change tyres under a red flag.

I don’t get it.

What is the problem that you are trying to solve?

For me, it's not about changing tyres under the red flag, its about that pit stop counting as the mandatory stop that the driver has to take during the race.

This is my point too, you gain an advantage - when the race has effectively been stopped.

The race stops for everyone, and everyone can change tyres or repair their car. There is no advantage.

It's not the same for everyone, it's a huge advantage to those that haven't already taken their mandatory pit stop.

[thegreenhell]

TheDeuce said:

GiantCardboardPlato said:

Jonnny said:

mat205125 said:

GiantCardboardPlato said:

All of these posts about not being allowed to change tyres under a red flag.

I don’t get it.

What is the problem that you are trying to solve?

For me, it's not about changing tyres under the red flag, its about that pit stop counting as the mandatory stop that the driver has to take during the race.

This is my point too, you gain an advantage - when the race has effectively been stopped.

The race stops for everyone, and everyone can change tyres or repair their car. There is no advantage.

It's not the same for everyone, it's a huge advantage to those that haven't already taken their mandatory pit stop.

Exactly. Or races like Monaco 2011 where a new tyre versus old tyre attack at the end of the race was completely neutralised when all the cars suddenly had free new tyres for the last few laps of the race.

[Deesee]

TheDeuce said:

GiantCardboardPlato said:

Jonnny said:

mat205125 said:

GiantCardboardPlato said:

All of these posts about not being allowed to change tyres under a red flag.

I don’t get it.

What is the problem that you are trying to solve?

For me, it's not about changing tyres under the red flag, its about that pit stop counting as the mandatory stop that the driver has to take during the race.

This is my point too, you gain an advantage - when the race has effectively been stopped.

The race stops for everyone, and everyone can change tyres or repair their car. There is no advantage.

It's not the same for everyone, it's a huge advantage to those that haven't already taken their mandatory pit stop.

Perhaps the RD should allow some of the cars to be worked on, not all..

Red Flags are rare, and the repairs/change of tyre work well, especially for a standing start (apart from Hungary a few years back grid of one).

There is 'no mandatory' stop, the regs are two compounds of tyre (unless a wet race).

[HustleRussell]

I raced in a series where limited tyre sets were permitted. If a tyre was damaged by a collision or debris you, with the oversight of an eligibility scrutineer, were permitted to substitute it for an equivalent tyre with a similar state of wear. If the tyre was less than 25% worn you were allowed a new one.

If that sounds too difficult or complicate to administrate, consider that the exact same practice is currently applied to repairs in parc ferme conditions... i.e. an eligibility scrutineer goes around and the team has to prove that the substitute part is the same spec as that which it replaces and won't offer a performance advantage compared to the original.

[kambites]

mat205125 said:

For me, it's not about changing tyres under the red flag, its about that pit stop counting as the mandatory stop that the driver has to take during the race.

Does the "you must run at least two tyre compounds" rule really serve any purpose anymore anyway?

[honda_exige]

Bits of Kmag's wheel made it into the crowd.

Could've been way worse but no real way to prevent it and that's why you have the warnings on the tickets. Cool piece of memorabilia for him though

[C70R]

honda_exige said:

Bits of Kmag's wheel made it into the crowd.

Could've been way worse but no real way to prevent it and that's why you have the warnings on the tickets. Cool piece of memorabilia for him though

That's scary.

"Red flags be damned, let them race" is really quite thick.

[Sandpit Steve]

honda_exige said:

Bits of Kmag's wheel made it into the crowd.

Could've been way worse but no real way to prevent it and that's why you have the warnings on the tickets. Cool piece of memorabilia for him though

“Australian GP Boss” can downplay all he likes, but he’s been ordered by the stewards to review safety and security at his event, and the FIA Commission are looking forward to his report.

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/decision-d...

Thankfully no serious injuries yesterday.

[GiantCardboardPlato]

TheDeuce said:

GiantCardboardPlato said:

Jonnny said:

mat205125 said:

GiantCardboardPlato said:

All of these posts about not being allowed to change tyres under a red flag.

I don’t get it.

What is the problem that you are trying to solve?

For me, it's not about changing tyres under the red flag, its about that pit stop counting as the mandatory stop that the driver has to take during the race.

This is my point too, you gain an advantage - when the race has effectively been stopped.

The race stops for everyone, and everyone can change tyres or repair their car. There is no advantage.

It's not the same for everyone, it's a huge advantage to those that haven't already taken their mandatory pit stop.

But here's the point: everybody could already have taken their pit stop (not mandatory by the way, the only thing that's mandatory is to use two different tyre compounds). So everyone had the same chance to do what Russell did (pit). He had the same chance to do what they did (not pit). He just chose differently, this time it was the wrong choice.

How far back do you want to go with this? Everyone had the same chance to build the car red bull built, but they didn't. That's led to them losing and Red Bull winning.

How do you feel about stops under the safety car, then? Should that also not be allowed? That can generate an advantage/disadvantage, too. Why would that be ok, but the red flag one not ok?

Here's my view:

Sport is exciting. In motorsport, the drama is created often by the interaction of chance or emergent events (weather, accidents, where you come across a back marker, etc.) with the competitors and the rules.

The goal of the rules is not to equalise or minimise the effect of chance events across all competitors. The goal of rules is to define the playing field and make sure everybody starts from the same point/level, that they all have the same opportunity.

Since chance events are by their nature unpredictable, trying to formulate a set of rules that will cover all possible events without 'disadvantaging' some competitors is foolish (and impossible). For example, banning repairs or working on cars during red flag periods would have the effect, sooner of later, of forcing otherwise unnecessary retirements from races by stopping people from repairing damage that they could have repaired.

The more complicated you make the rules about what you can and cannot do, the more often they are going to interact with chance and circumstance to generate things that feel unfair.

Given that, the better option is to minimise the number of rules, and simplify what they stipulate, and default to not disallowing stuff. That way, when things happen like the red flag being thrown after someone pits under the safety car, the 'unfairness' is caused by the chance event or circumstance and NOT by the interaction of (more complicated, more numerous) rules with it.

i.e. The permissibility of 'stuff' is the default, it is an active act to disallow something. If chance happens and rules interact with it, any advantage or disadvantage gained is a product of the RULE and the CIRCUMSTANCE. Circumstance/chance just happens, there is no agency, so there can be no argument that that is artificial. But when our rules interact with circumstance WE are actively generating advantages/disadvantages, rather than 'fate'.

Yes, (if we follow the rules properly, cough cough), what will happen is predetermined, and so it can be argued to be 'fate' just as much as the original circumstance. But we all know eventually rules are not always correctly applied, or not applied infallibly. Complicated rules applied to the unpredictable nature of chance situations generate opportunities for fallibility.

Therefore, for sporting fairness, the best you can do is say 'things happen' and not try even it out in the way almost all the posters here seem to be arguing for.

The red flag after Russell pitted is really no different from it starting to rain right after you pit for new tyres, the safety car being deploying right after you pit, being held longer in your pit box because a car comes in just as your pit stop finishes, etc. etc.

Edited by GiantCardboardPlato on Monday 3rd April 11:16

[audi321]

GiantCardboardPlato said:

TheDeuce said:

GiantCardboardPlato said:

Jonnny said:

mat205125 said:

GiantCardboardPlato said:

All of these posts about not being allowed to change tyres under a red flag.

I don’t get it.

What is the problem that you are trying to solve?

For me, it's not about changing tyres under the red flag, its about that pit stop counting as the mandatory stop that the driver has to take during the race.

This is my point too, you gain an advantage - when the race has effectively been stopped.

The race stops for everyone, and everyone can change tyres or repair their car. There is no advantage.

It's not the same for everyone, it's a huge advantage to those that haven't already taken their mandatory pit stop.

how do you feel about stops under the safety car, then? should that also not be allowed?

No I don’t think they should. Anything whereby luck comes into play should be taken out of the equation. Ie you’re just passed the pits when the SC is deployed whereas the next guy isn’t so can pit. Tyre changes at red flag shouldn’t be allowed either.

[vaud]

audi321 said:

Tyre changes at red flag shouldn’t be allowed either.

I think they should be allowed if the reason for stopping is debris on the track, that the cars may have driven through.

[Blib]

C70R said:

That's scary.

"Red flags be damned, let them race" is really quite thick.

Thick? THICK?!!!!!! How VERY dare you!

1) The injury occurred before the red flag.

2) "If cars have to skirt around broken carbon, gravel or bits of driver then so be it.", along with tips on tyre rebound strategies should have alerted you to the irony inherent in the post.

[TheDeuce]

Sandpit Steve said:

honda_exige said:

Bits of Kmag's wheel made it into the crowd.

Could've been way worse but no real way to prevent it and that's why you have the warnings on the tickets. Cool piece of memorabilia for him though

“Australian GP Boss” can downplay all he likes, but he’s been ordered by the stewards to review safety and security at his event, and the FIA Commission are looking forward to his report.

https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/decision-d...

Thankfully no serious injuries yesterday.

People getting onto the track was the problem. It's fair to say that the CF fragment that hit that guy could have happened anywhere and is a freak incident.

[GiantCardboardPlato]

audi321 said:

No I don’t think they should. Anything whereby luck comes into play should be taken out of the equation. Ie you’re just passed the pits when the SC is deployed whereas the next guy isn’t so can pit. Tyre changes at red flag shouldn’t be allowed either.

my bold.

The corner you catch a back marker on

The crystallite/metal grain defect that causes your piston to fail

The puncture you get running over a kerb because you are the first person across some debris.

The change in weather than raises the air pressure by 5 mbar that disfavours your set up.

The gust of wind on your qualifying lap.

The marshall who didn't see the car ahead of you and so missed an opportunity to wave a blue flag.

the marshalls who are slow with yellow flags and so although you passed an accident on your quali lap, you didn't have to lift, but your competitors did.

The tear off that got stuck in your brake duct.

The oily mist from the car infont, now all over your visor, so you can't see as well as others.

I can keep going...

here's the point: YOU CANNOT NEUTRALISE, ADJUST, OR CONTROL FOR LUCK.

nor should you want to: the drama and entertainment is created by the interaction of competitors, rules, and circumstance. It'd be dull as st if you did what you say.