Honda - another disaster ?
Discussion
RumbleOfThunder said:
CanAm said:
aeropilot said:
I did laugh at the quip from DC on the C4 commentary when Vandorne slowed up with his engine sounding like a bag of spanners being shaken around......
And what was the quip?DC quipped something like, "It doesn't sound good when its running properly"
I can't remember the exact words now, but did make me chortle at the time.
I've just read some rumours on the internet that Honda are now saying they will partner McLaren in F1 or withdraw completely. Apparently they are unable to reach a decision about the way forward, hence the delays. Also suggesting the announcement will not be made before Singapore. Sources are quoted as top people inside Honda.
suffolk009 said:
I've just read some rumours on the internet that Honda are now saying they will partner McLaren in F1 or withdraw completely. Apparently they are unable to reach a decision about the way forward, hence the delays. Also suggesting the announcement will not be made before Singapore. Sources are quoted as top people inside Honda.
That could lead to a huge problem then as Renault have stated they won't supply an extra team. This whole thing is a complete f
k up. If I were McLaren I'd stick with Honda, fk Alonso out the building, take Sainz or Kubica as replacement and get a plan in place now to start making their own engines from 2021.HTP99 said:
I'd love to know, how much money Honda have ploughed into this, in the three years that they have been back to F1, in comparison with Renault, Ferrari, Mercedes etc, surely this whole debacle is just not worth it and it must be harming the brand
The biggest problem was the engine token idea which basically messed Honda up. This along with starting a year later has just made things near impossible.I really hope Honda and McLaren do stick together but I very much doubt it. The power unit is just not good enough
Jinba Ittai said:
suffolk009 said:
I've just read some rumours on the internet that Honda are now saying they will partner McLaren in F1 or withdraw completely. Apparently they are unable to reach a decision about the way forward, hence the delays. Also suggesting the announcement will not be made before Singapore. Sources are quoted as top people inside Honda.
That could lead to a huge problem then as Renault have stated they won't supply an extra team. This whole thing is a complete fk up. If I were McLaren I'd stick with Honda, fk Alonso out the building, take Sainz or Kubica as replacement and get a plan in place now to start making their own engines from 2021.I don't believe a customer Renault engine is a substantial upgrade over a works Honda (which has it's advantages), and it's not like they're getting their hands on the PU that's the class of the field that's going to instantly propel them to the sharp end.
Not sure making their own engines would be wise, there may be an FIA backed independent engine supplier available in 2021.
Dr Z said:
I fear McLaren are going to make a bad decision when Honda is on the verge of coming good. I think they should give Honda another year and forget whatever Alonso is up to. Rumours are that the engine coming in time for around Suzuka is supposed to be give a substantial upgrade over the current one, and they are looking pretty competitive in the midfield already. The nightmare of 2015-16 was due to the token system that locked you into an advantage or disadvantage.
I don't believe a customer Renault engine is a substantial upgrade over a works Honda (which has it's advantages), and it's not like they're getting their hands on the PU that's the class of the field that's going to instantly propel them to the sharp end.
Not sure making their own engines would be wise, there may be an FIA backed independent engine supplier available in 2021.
Porsche are looking at coming into F1 in 2021 IF things are right for them.I don't believe a customer Renault engine is a substantial upgrade over a works Honda (which has it's advantages), and it's not like they're getting their hands on the PU that's the class of the field that's going to instantly propel them to the sharp end.
Not sure making their own engines would be wise, there may be an FIA backed independent engine supplier available in 2021.
Clearly F1 will have to make sure it keeps these manufactures happy even if us fans disagree.
Formula E are attracting so F1 will need to make sure they also attract.
Hopefully Ford and others will follow suit.
I love the naivety which leads people to believe that McLaren are capable of making their own Formula 1 power units when one of the planet's leading engine manufacturers, with huge resources and engineering expertise has made such an enormous and very public balls-up of it.
As I understand it, Renault do not have the infrastructure or resources to supply a fourth team with the hardware, software and technical support needed to run their power units, so any "Renault-to-McLaren" deal would be contingent upon another Renault powered team using a different engine, probably Honda. The rationale behind Honda moving to Toro Rosso makes a lot of sense, because they can develop the power units under (a little) less scrutiny, and when/if they manage to get it right, the way opens to supply the senior Red Bull team, so that they can finally free themselves from Renault.
Something needs to happen in the next couple of weeks, as McLaren and Toro Rosso need to finalise their designs and start building their 2018 cars.
The worst-case scenario would be Honda's senior management deciding that their reputation has suffered enough adverse publicity on a regular, global basis, and pulling the plug on the F1 project. They've done it before.
As I understand it, Renault do not have the infrastructure or resources to supply a fourth team with the hardware, software and technical support needed to run their power units, so any "Renault-to-McLaren" deal would be contingent upon another Renault powered team using a different engine, probably Honda. The rationale behind Honda moving to Toro Rosso makes a lot of sense, because they can develop the power units under (a little) less scrutiny, and when/if they manage to get it right, the way opens to supply the senior Red Bull team, so that they can finally free themselves from Renault.
Something needs to happen in the next couple of weeks, as McLaren and Toro Rosso need to finalise their designs and start building their 2018 cars.
The worst-case scenario would be Honda's senior management deciding that their reputation has suffered enough adverse publicity on a regular, global basis, and pulling the plug on the F1 project. They've done it before.
ELUSIVEJIM said:
Porsche are looking at coming into F1 in 2021 IF things are right for them.
Clearly F1 will have to make sure it keeps these manufactures happy even if us fans disagree.
Formula E are attracting so F1 will need to make sure they also attract.
Hopefully Ford and others will follow suit.
Not sure Porsche will partner McLaren though given they are competitors for road cars too. Clearly F1 will have to make sure it keeps these manufactures happy even if us fans disagree.
Formula E are attracting so F1 will need to make sure they also attract.
Hopefully Ford and others will follow suit.
A lot of people have shown interest in joining F1 subject to the 2021 engines, make or break moment for liberty and the rest of the F1 team
Jinba Ittai said:
That could lead to a huge problem then as Renault have stated they won't supply an extra team. This whole thing is a complete fk up. If I were McLaren I'd stick with Honda, fk Alonso out the building, take Sainz or Kubica as replacement and get a plan in place now to start making their own engines from 2021.
I agree. 100%.k up. If I were McLaren I'd stick with Honda, fk Alonso out the building, take Sainz or Kubica as replacement and get a plan in place now to start making their own engines from 2021.ELUSIVEJIM said:
Porsche are looking at coming into F1 in 2021 IF things are right for them.
Yes, I remember reading a Porsche boss a month ago confirming that their LMP1 group have looked at some concepts for a high efficiency engine that could be adapted to F1. IIRC the plan is to retain the engineers in the LMP1 project and use them for their FE or other programmes. Maybe keep them going till the 2021 regs are fixed, before pulling more into the engine project. Red Bull-TAG Porsche anyone? 
LaurasOtherHalf said:
Press in Japan are talking up Honda being able to sue McLaren for millions for breaking the deal, it might be impossible for them to get out of the deal.
Surely McLaren would have something in the contract allowing them to walk away if Honda do not provide a reliable product?Trevatanus said:
LaurasOtherHalf said:
Press in Japan are talking up Honda being able to sue McLaren for millions for breaking the deal, it might be impossible for them to get out of the deal.
Surely McLaren would have something in the contract allowing them to walk away if Honda do not provide a reliable product?ELUSIVEJIM said:
The biggest problem was the engine token idea which basically messed Honda up. This along with starting a year later has just made things near impossible.
I really hope Honda and McLaren do stick together but I very much doubt it. The power unit is just not good enough
They were not subject to the Token system for the first year and ignored it in the 2nd year, the 3rd year it didn't apply.I really hope Honda and McLaren do stick together but I very much doubt it. The power unit is just not good enough
Their problems are not related to the Token system, their problem is their initial design philosophy was so far wrong it had to be scrapped and they started again for the 2017 season. This is why this year has been even worse than 2016 was.
If they cant show numbers on the dyno and a reduction of the vibration issues by now, their 2018 package is unlikely to work well enough to compete. This is killing any chance McLaren has of getting sponsors onboard, all they will want is to have something they can rely on that will get them at worst above FI/Williams on pace, they can rebuild from that point. Renault will do that, even with some failures as Red Bull are having. (some of that may be down to packaging compromises by Red Bull).
Renault are now a works outfit again, they will be investing massively in their power plant compared to the previous years, so its likely they will come good, unlike Honda in the modern era, Renault have built some stunning power plants that win championships.
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