Official 2020 Bahrain Grand Prix Thread **SPOILERS**
Discussion
sgtBerbatov said:
I can't remember who said it, but they raised the question that if Grosjean was unconscious with that inferno, was the single sole fire extinguisher enough to help rescuers remove him from the car? And even if he wasn't unconscious but he was trapped under the armco, restricting his extraction, would that fire extinguisher be enough?
From what I can gather, the extinguisher did enough to push the flames back a bit to get an already mobile Grosjean out of the car. Like I said, if it had been any of the other two scenarios (which in this instance, both could've easily happened), I'd be concerned. Plus the marshalls didn't have masks either, so there's that to look at too.
My feeling is that the 2nd guy with an extinguisher, was holding off so he could carry on keeping the flame off the driver if the first extinguisher ran out. (The guy berated on here for not using it). I don't think we're expecting the hand held extinguishers to put out a big fuel fire. It's about buying time for the driver to allow the pickup with the big extinguisher to turn up. I think they'd have retrieved him alive even if unconscious, by keeping the worst of the fire off him with the hand held extinguishers. But no doubt his burns would have been worse. Thank the stars it didn't come to it though.From what I can gather, the extinguisher did enough to push the flames back a bit to get an already mobile Grosjean out of the car. Like I said, if it had been any of the other two scenarios (which in this instance, both could've easily happened), I'd be concerned. Plus the marshalls didn't have masks either, so there's that to look at too.
In general I'd say the post marshals job is to stop small fires turning into big fires, and for big fires, buy time for the driver until the experts to arrive*. But I'm not an expert (4 days marshalling makes me more dangerous than any use I'd say!).
- (Although, those experts are not always the most stable... https://youtu.be/emABvbjOqB4?t=89https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCGPCYV8ElA)
I'll be very impressed if it turns out that most of the fuel is still safely in the cell. For me the big problem with that crash was that it was a sudden stop. From the pictures it looks to me like the nose got lodged in, rotated the car around practically in its own length and then met one of the barrier's retaining posts just behind the cockpit, and I expect this is why the rupture likely occured. basically he sideswiped a metal pole set in concrete. This action, wedging the tub in through the barriers and then detaching the back took nearly all of the energy of the impact. Look how close everything still is to the point of impact. The back of the car, showing not a lot of damage, didn't go very far. Nearly all of its energy was lost either crushing the fuel cell area or detaching itself from the tub.
To me, that's the most shocking part of the crash, and I'm sure is the cause of the fire. When bits of car are sliding, rolling or tumbling down the track for another 50 metres, that's all energy been taken out of the crash and being dissipated relatively slowly. When it all comes to a stop in less than half a second and within, what, 10 metres of the impact point, without lots of tyres to absorb all that energy, personally I don't think that the fuel system could reasonably be expected not to fail under that stress, and that the thing that made the crash dangerous wasn't the fuel cell, but the fact that the barrier trapped the car.
Had he hit concrete barriers instead, like Kubica in Canada, my layman's mind thinks that the shunt would have been more painful and possibly more risk of broken bones, but less life threatening overall.
Also, happy to add my name to the list of those who were skeptical of Halo and are now converted. I can't imagine the Indy screen would have been any use in that crash.
In a 2017 car, he wouldn't have made it out. I'm sure of that.
To me, that's the most shocking part of the crash, and I'm sure is the cause of the fire. When bits of car are sliding, rolling or tumbling down the track for another 50 metres, that's all energy been taken out of the crash and being dissipated relatively slowly. When it all comes to a stop in less than half a second and within, what, 10 metres of the impact point, without lots of tyres to absorb all that energy, personally I don't think that the fuel system could reasonably be expected not to fail under that stress, and that the thing that made the crash dangerous wasn't the fuel cell, but the fact that the barrier trapped the car.
Had he hit concrete barriers instead, like Kubica in Canada, my layman's mind thinks that the shunt would have been more painful and possibly more risk of broken bones, but less life threatening overall.
Also, happy to add my name to the list of those who were skeptical of Halo and are now converted. I can't imagine the Indy screen would have been any use in that crash.
In a 2017 car, he wouldn't have made it out. I'm sure of that.
Edited by kiseca on Monday 30th November 14:13
Exige77 said:
NoddyonNitrous said:
FourWheelDrift said:
The suddenness of the fire at impact and others saying it couldn't the 100kg of fuel going up just makes me think it's a battery fire.
I don't understand - are you saying that's electricity burning? What are the batteries made of that is so volatile?
CanAm said:
I remember it as Eric says. You may recall that James Hunt in particular used to have a nomex(?) skirt aound the bottom of his helmet to seal it.
In that Ferrarichat link, one of the posters says that the emergency supply was not pure oxygen but an air mixture. If anybody has any information to clarify the nature of these supply bottles, it would be interesting to know.Eric Mc said:
In that Ferrarichat link, one of the posters says that the emergency supply was not pure oxygen but an air mixture. If anybody has any information to clarify the nature of these supply bottles, it would be interesting to know.
There was a historic F1 mechanic - poppopbangbang - who may know. I'll message him.thegreenhell said:
But would a battery fire have set off a fireball that engulfed the whole front of the car, and the ground and barriers around it? The battery fires I've seen have been very intense, but also very focussed. What we saw yesterday was much more like a classic liquid fuel explosion, as you'd expect from a ruptured fuel vessel.
What looked like the battery was still intact and being pointed at by the FIA guy and 2 Haas team members in the shots after the crash. Far as I can tell Haas sent a couple of guys with a multimeter to check the thing was safe to handle. If it'd burst into flames there'd be no need to ponder about the state of charge in it.Hub said:
Yep, remember what Webber called him back in the day? It was a risky sudden lunge.
Agreed, Grosjean to blame for the crash.When I saw the initial footage I thought something must have given up on his car (wheel lock, blowout etc) to cause him to swoop so suddenly across like that into the path of another driver but that appears not to be the case.
Very lucky to still be alive and relatively unharmed. It could have been so, so much worse for him.
This photo shows a replica of Graham Hill's helmet from the early 70s, the union for the oxygen supply being visible. As mentioned above most drivers would wear these in conjunction with a flameproof "bib" dangling from the lower rim of the helmet.
I think this helmet is a Griffin. Their helmets incorporated a controversial "frangible bolt" on the chinstrap that was designed to fracture when a certain load was reached. OK in theory - but if the load was reached when the helmet hit one of the then-trendy catch fences you would then arrive at the Armco with only your skull as protection.
I think I'm right in saying that Lauda had an ? AGV air-supply helmet at the time of his "Ring accident - this was knocked off in the original impact and sat on his lap merrily adding oxygen to the fire...
I think this helmet is a Griffin. Their helmets incorporated a controversial "frangible bolt" on the chinstrap that was designed to fracture when a certain load was reached. OK in theory - but if the load was reached when the helmet hit one of the then-trendy catch fences you would then arrive at the Armco with only your skull as protection.
I think I'm right in saying that Lauda had an ? AGV air-supply helmet at the time of his "Ring accident - this was knocked off in the original impact and sat on his lap merrily adding oxygen to the fire...
Edited by moffspeed on Monday 30th November 14:33
thegreenhell said:
But would a battery fire have set off a fireball that engulfed the whole front of the car, and the ground and barriers around it? The battery fires I've seen have been very intense, but also very focussed. What we saw yesterday was much more like a classic liquid fuel explosion, as you'd expect from a ruptured fuel vessel.
A battery fire would start off more slowly, would be difficult to extinguish (doesn’t require oxygen from the air) and would have been initially more localised. The fuel would have come from the collector or the tank, possibly both, the tank may have been sufficiently squashed by the engine as it separated to force some fuel out of it through the (missing in photos) filler pipe.
Edited by Sandpit Steve on Monday 30th November 14:27
rscott said:
robuk said:
Hereward said:
I watched the highlights last night since I heard there had finally been an interesting race. I noticed the drivers all bent the knee before the start of the race. Is this something they all have to do now do at every race? Presumably it's woe betide any driver who does not want to take part in the virtue signalling?
Which part of "End Racism" do you not agree with?TheDeuce said:
I think every thread about ME or Russian races starts this way - I'm just trying to apply reason to the established 'no' response.
As for Lewis, I think that now Saudi are in the books Lewis can say whatever he wishes - they won't sack off F1 knowing their neighbour is celebrating having it... It's all about pride and accomplishment, so they'll put up with whatever comes along with the F1 circus.
That's exactly why I support such races, despite it obviously being a tough subject.
I'd give full respect to Hamilton if he does actually speak up against the Saudis but he has had plenty of chance to do so in Bahrain too as they have a brutal and repressive Saudi-backed regime.As for Lewis, I think that now Saudi are in the books Lewis can say whatever he wishes - they won't sack off F1 knowing their neighbour is celebrating having it... It's all about pride and accomplishment, so they'll put up with whatever comes along with the F1 circus.
That's exactly why I support such races, despite it obviously being a tough subject.
Indeed, all the drivers/teams seem to be OK with racing in Bahrain and no doubt will have no problems with doing so in Saudi Arabia either. They're happy to just concentrate on nice social media photo ops for the officially mandated and politically correct cause du jour, to rack up the virtue points.
Thoughts on the subject without having to read 500 pages to see if already covered.
Shocking and you realise how much you care about the drivers welfare.
Grosjean pretty much saved himself.
Must have been a small amount of fuel as you didnt see a fire engine attend and they were sort of wandering around the area afterwards making sparks.
At least they can look at all the aspects to improve safety without the death of a driver hanging over them.
They could have gone diesel high bread next to mitigate this sort of blast but it sends a its ok to choke kids to death again message.
Shocking and you realise how much you care about the drivers welfare.
Grosjean pretty much saved himself.
Must have been a small amount of fuel as you didnt see a fire engine attend and they were sort of wandering around the area afterwards making sparks.
At least they can look at all the aspects to improve safety without the death of a driver hanging over them.
They could have gone diesel high bread next to mitigate this sort of blast but it sends a its ok to choke kids to death again message.
After watching the replays of roman getting out i still dont know he managed to do so physically. The g force impact should have knocked him out cold and sitting in a seat with flames all around would have frozen/panicked the life out of me...guess the drivers train themselves mentally to control their fears and surge of adrenaline when they have an accident. Its remarkable.
In reply to Lucas Ayde;
You have to choose your fights surely. Hamilton sees himself as a black man and has chosen, at the moment, to campaign for their rights.
If you wanted to police the world, especially as an international sportsman, you’d probably not do a lot of sport.
But frankly I find the gulf states fairly abhorrent places and would really rather F1 didn’t lend them any more credibility.
But F1 and Hell Holes have a long history.
You have to choose your fights surely. Hamilton sees himself as a black man and has chosen, at the moment, to campaign for their rights.
If you wanted to police the world, especially as an international sportsman, you’d probably not do a lot of sport.
But frankly I find the gulf states fairly abhorrent places and would really rather F1 didn’t lend them any more credibility.
But F1 and Hell Holes have a long history.
Edited by swisstoni on Monday 30th November 15:14
Murghee said:
After watching the replays of roman getting out i still dont know he managed to do so physically. The g force impact should have knocked him out cold and sitting in a seat with flames all around would have frozen/panicked the life out of me...guess the drivers train themselves mentally to control their fears and surge of adrenaline when they have an accident. Its remarkable.
I would guess most people in that situation still conscious would be trying to get out quickly. There's a difference between being in something burning and needing to try and get out, and say turning up at a horrific accident and freezing/not helping due to the stress. Murghee said:
After watching the replays of roman getting out i still dont know he managed to do so physically. The g force impact should have knocked him out cold and sitting in a seat with flames all around would have frozen/panicked the life out of me...guess the drivers train themselves mentally to control their fears and surge of adrenaline when they have an accident. Its remarkable.
This is why I'm a bit 'relieved' that it happened to one of the most experienced drivers on the grid. Whilst I know they're all highly-trained professionals, I think some of the younger drivers might have struggled a bit more than Romain did.swisstoni said:
But frankly I find the gulf states fairly abhorrent places and would really rather F1 didn’t lend them any more credibility.
Agreed.swisstoni said:
But F1 and Hell Holes have a long history.
Never been one in Middlesborough though.Even Max and Bernie had some principles.
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