Nico Rosberg retires from F1

[LDN]

Disastrous said:

LDN said:

it's not always the best driver that wins the WDC

If you think it is; your definition of 'best' is warped. Even when faced with team principals being asked this very question - and giving a different answer to that which you'd like; you don't see it! How did you make it this far!

[LDN]

HustleRussell said:

LDN said:

anonymous said:

[redacted]

calm down dear!

Which point did I not address? I'm happy to answer...

You said Hamilton is petulant at times; I said 'they all are'... done and dusted. Where's the point scoring? Take a chill pill

With all this talk of point scoring, I'm concerned that once the points are counted and the scores are in we will have to have a 70 page argument about whether the winner on points was in fact the best and most correct debater and deserving of the accolade of ‘winner’, or whether the eventual loser on points had simply been unlucky with internet connection and keyboard issues and perhaps would’ve been the more deserving winner if only he had scored enough points.

I like what you did there. Very good!

[The Surveyor]

LDN said:

But funnily enough; you back up my point; that the WDC isn't a measure of best driver... so maybe I do know what I'm talking about. The irony.

Correct, but it depends on what your measure is for 'best'.

Max was the best in the rain in Brazil, exciting yet lucky to keep it out of the wall. He didn't win but that was the 'best' drive of the weekend.

The WDC is a measure of who has been the most consistent driver over the whole 21 race season. The driver who takes the most points through the season, the most points due to luck, speed, luck, reliability, luck, and skill. A driver doesn't even need to win a single race to be WDC so that isn't a measure of outright pace.

If your measure of the current 'best' is the driver who wins the most points then this year it is Nico, the WDC and the most consistent driver through the whole season. On that measure he is the best because he holds that title. That can not be argued against unless you measure 'best' differently.

If your measure of 'best' extends over a career to balance any of that 'luck', then you need to look at multiple WDC's and that is currently Lewis Hamilton who is still consistently at the top. A runner-up and 2 WDC's in the last 3 years shows that. Drivers like Vettel have shown that they are also in the reckoning but his achievements are being pegged by his current feckless team, ditto with Alonso. You then question if Alonso is a better driver than Rosberg and Hamilton as he repeatedly out-drives the potential of his car, poor points total but a very racy performance?

[Disastrous]

LDN said:

Disastrous said:

LDN said:

it's not always the best driver that wins the WDC

If you think it is; your definition of 'best' is warped. Even when faced with team principals being asked this very question - and giving a different answer to that which you'd like; you don't see it! How did you make it this far!

My definition of best is the same as the one the FIA use to decide who won the world championship.

Your definition is, what exactly?

[LDN]

The Surveyor said:

LDN said:

But funnily enough; you back up my point; that the WDC isn't a measure of best driver... so maybe I do know what I'm talking about. The irony.

Correct, but it depends on what your measure is for 'best'.

Max was the best in the rain in Brazil, exciting yet lucky to keep it out of the wall. He didn't win but that was the 'best' drive of the weekend.

The WDC is a measure of who has been the most consistent driver over the whole 21 race season. The driver who takes the most points through the season, the most points due to luck, speed, luck, reliability, luck, and skill. A driver doesn't even need to win a single race to be WDC so that isn't a measure of outright pace.

If your measure of the current 'best' is the driver who wins the most points then this year it is Nico, the WDC and the most consistent driver through the whole season. On that measure he is the best because he holds that title. That can not be argued against unless you measure 'best' differently.

If your measure of 'best' extends over a career to balance any of that 'luck', then you need to look at multiple WDC's and that is currently Lewis Hamilton who is still consistently at the top. A runner-up and 2 WDC's in the last 3 years shows that. Drivers like Vettel have shown that they are also in the reckoning but his achievements are being pegged by his current feckless team, ditto with Alonso. You then question if Alonso is a better driver than Rosberg and Hamilton as he repeatedly out-drives the potential of his car, poor points total but a very racy performance?

A reasoned take on it all, indeed.

Again, I would say; the team principals chose a 'best' driver this year that was not the actual WDC winner. Disastrous; I ask you; what is their measure of 'best'? ...seeing that they didn't vote for the actual number one. Don't ask me; ask them, if you ever get the chance.

Aside from it all; the standings are swayed by all sorts; more variables than in most sports. Its funny because, when push comes to shove; it seems most people agree

[epom]

Anyone else think Hamilton is over rated and has been lucky to be in the best car? Only saying.

[heebeegeetee]

Disastrous said:

My definition of best is the same as the one the FIA use to decide who won the world championship.

Your definition is, what exactly?

That's fine, but I don't think too many will agree, and certainly not me. The driver's points system has to be influenced by the equipment available obviously, hence opinions have merit, er, imo.

Motorsport Magazine have spoken, they have Rosberg 4th. http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opinion/f1/top-1...

[The Surveyor]

epom said:

Anyone else think Hamilton is over rated and has been lucky to be in the best car? Only saying.

I think the harder he works, the luckier he gets.

[Disastrous]

heebeegeetee said:

Disastrous said:

My definition of best is the same as the one the FIA use to decide who won the world championship.

Your definition is, what exactly?

That's fine, but I don't think too many will agree, and certainly not me. The driver's points system has to be influenced by the equipment available obviously, hence opinions have merit, er, imo.

Motorsport Magazine have spoken, they have Rosberg 4th. http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/opinion/f1/top-1...

I think the only way to account for equipment and everything else is to look at the WDC.

How would you define best?

[heebeegeetee]

Disastrous said:

I think the only way to account for equipment and everything else is to look at the WDC.

How would you define best?

My method would be the same as all these types of polls. You have to look beyond the points system and I think most do.

According the the FIA Jolyon Palmer is a better driver than Pascal Wehrlein and I just don't agree with that.

[oyster]

37chevy said:

oyster said:

It doesn't matter who is better. Driver B will win the race and get the points.

This is Formula 1, can you not grasp that?

Having an engine that doesn't blow up IS part of the championship and the results. It always has been in motorsport and ALWAYS will be.


I'll repeat again - it doesn't matter who is considered the best if their car isn't up to it. And in 2016, Hamilton's car wasn't.

I grasp it perfectly well thanks, and if you'd bothered to go back to my original post I said nico deserved the championship, but it's the fact that people were calling him the better driver I had an issue with

Ahh ok fair enough. At 18+ pages I got lazy and didn't look for your earlier posts.

[768]

Even the FIA look beyond the points. Or they'd never change the points system.

[Disastrous]

heebeegeetee said:

Disastrous said:

I think the only way to account for equipment and everything else is to look at the WDC.

How would you define best?

My method would be the same as all these types of polls. You have to look beyond the points system and I think most do.

According the the FIA Jolyon Palmer is a better driver than Pascal Wehrlein and I just don't agree with that.

So it's just a gut feeling then, rather than a firm definition of best?

For me, Palmer was better (as a complete package, comprising team, luck etc) than Wehrlein, this year.

[Disastrous]

Or to put it another way, in what way do you think Wehrlein is better? It's crucial to define it as it's so subjective. Hence the WDC making it easy.

[heebeegeetee]

Disastrous said:

So it's just a gut feeling then,

Good god no, I mean look at that Motorsport description of Ricciardo. None of that is gut feeling.

I would agree with all it says but I wouldn't bother arguing about who is better out of him and Hamilton, they're the top two for me. I'd put Rosberg after that then Verstappen.

I base it on what they've done with the kit they've got against the opposition they've had.

[Disastrous]

heebeegeetee said:

Disastrous said:

So it's just a gut feeling then,

Good god no, I mean look at that Motorsport description of Ricciardo. None of that is gut feeling.

I would agree with all it says but I wouldn't bother arguing about who is better out of him and Hamilton, they're the top two for me. I'd put Rosberg after that then Verstappen.

I base it on what they've done with the kit they've got against the opposition they've had.

I see what you're getting at but it's just too ill-defined for me.

For example, Rosberg and Hamilton were in the same machinery but Hamilton lost. For me, the better driver would put enough air between himself and his closest opponent to absorb the usual expected DNFs over a course of a season. I do think Hamilton is faster on his day, but those days don't happen reliably enough so this year, Rosberg was better overall.

Anything else is as you say, opinion. And opinion is coloured by bias and subjective.

So whilst you are absolutely allowed to rate Hamilton and Ricciardo highest, the facts, the numbers - THIS YEAR - put Rosberg best.

I don't even like Rosberg especially but I do realise that my opinion of who is best is irrelevant as my guy didn't win.

[768]

Some facts do. Some facts don't.

It's all opinion, there's no getting away from it whether you like the points system or not.

[heebeegeetee]

Disastrous said:

I see what you're getting at but it's just too ill-defined for me.

For example, Rosberg and Hamilton were in the same machinery but Hamilton lost. For me, the better driver would put enough air between himself and his closest opponent to absorb the usual expected DNFs over a course of a season.

And I think without the engine probs he had during the course of the season, and all engine changes carry penalties don't forget, whether in a race or not, then I think he would have done exactly that.

The engine difficulties can't be ignored, they're a fact.

I think LH's bad starts have contributed a lot also, but then in balance so did Rosberg's being outqualified 12 times or whatever it was.

The points system can't take the engine problems into account, but everyone else is free to do so if they wish.

[Jasandjules]

Disastrous said:

I think Alonso is a great driver. But he's definitely not the best as he's not scored well this year at all. He has been the best in the past for sure and perhaps will again if he gets a Merc seat.

Do you not believe that a great driver will score points in a car which in many other drivers' hands would not score points? I believe the Team bosses call it something like outperforming the car.

Do you not consider that a great driver can control the cars at speed in difficult conditions, such as Monaco this year.......

[Disastrous]

Jasandjules said:

Disastrous said:

I think Alonso is a great driver. But he's definitely not the best as he's not scored well this year at all. He has been the best in the past for sure and perhaps will again if he gets a Merc seat.

Do you not believe that a great driver will score points in a car which in many other drivers' hands would not score points? I believe the Team bosses call it something like outperforming the car.

Do you not consider that a great driver can control the cars at speed in difficult conditions, such as Monaco this year.......

Of course. I think Alonso is a great driver. But not the best THIS YEAR, primarily due to being in a st car.