Alonso to leave Ferrari?

[Justaredbadge]

Don't the kers units sit on the front of the engine and drive through the crankshaft?


Anyway, avoid gears are a physical impossibility. they work on bicycles, but not as gears meshed together.

[CraigyMc]

Justaredbadge said:

Don't the kers units sit on the front of the engine and drive through the crankshaft?
Anyway, avoid gears are a physical impossibility. they work on bicycles, but not as gears meshed together.

Non-circular gears aren't impossible: they are used in all manner of things. Here are some being used in flow meters: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqDTwP1a6bo

[rubystone]

Jasandjules said:

Well, the KERS failures seem to be mainly on Webber's car do they not?

Plus the control units are all made by McLaren ?

The SECU is manufactured by McLaren. Whether it controls KERS or not is not something I am aware of.

[CraigyMc]

rubystone said:

Jasandjules said:

Well, the KERS failures seem to be mainly on Webber's car do they not?

Plus the control units are all made by McLaren ?

The SECU is manufactured by McLaren. Whether it controls KERS or not is not something I am aware of.

The SECU hardware is from MES (Mclaren Electronic Systems) - the software is from Microsoft.

They only measure energy released via KERS at the moment, not the energy harvested. Article -> http://scarbsf1.com/blog1/2013/01/16/how-do-teams-...

People talk about KERS harvest happening under braking, to turn some of the kinetic energy of the car into electrical power in the KERS battery: that's what it's there for. The intent of the system is clear.

I am explicitly NOT talking about that. I'm talking about using the KERS "harvest" (generator) feature to modulate the power output from the engine during acceleration and/or during manouevers which would otherwise cause the rear wheels to lose traction.
It is possible that even if your KERS battery were 100% full, you would still harvest and instead of attempting to overfill the battery, you would throw the spare electricity away. In this mode it'd still be useful as an electronically controlled brake of up to 80kw/whatever the generator limit is, and braking from lap to lap would be unaffected.

You could happily call this "torque control" if you liked.

Just a theory, like.

[vonuber]

Justaredbadge said:

Not to mention that Alonso was very much in the centre of the chain that passed Ferrari info, ultimately, to Mike Coughlan.

Teflon coated then.

He was even invited to leave the hearing early so as not to stain his character.

Utter joke.

Indeed. And yet he is held in higher regard for his character than vettel eho had the temerity to disobey team orders (which people usually oppose except in this instance) and overtake his teammate to go for a win. Most bizarre.
Alonso must be one of the greatest 'political' drivers of all time.

[rubystone]

CraigyMc said:

The SECU hardware is from MES (Mclaren Electronic Systems) - the software is from Microsoft.

They only measure energy released via KERS at the moment, not the energy harvested. Article -> http://scarbsf1.com/blog1/2013/01/16/how-do-teams-...

People talk about KERS harvest happening under braking, to turn some of the kinetic energy of the car into electrical power in the KERS battery: that's what it's there for. The intent of the system is clear.

I am explicitly NOT talking about that. I'm talking about using the KERS "harvest" (generator) feature to modulate the power output from the engine during acceleration and/or during manouevers which would otherwise cause the rear wheels to lose traction.
It is possible that even if your KERS battery were 100% full, you would still harvest and instead of attempting to overfill the battery, you would throw the spare electricity away. In this mode it'd still be useful as an electronically controlled brake of up to 80kw/whatever the generator limit is, and braking from lap to lap would be unaffected.

You could happily call this "torque control" if you liked.

Just a theory, like.

There's been a whole ton of discussion elsewhere about this theory. Horner referred to it during end of those Sky paddock interviews. How could one 'throw' electricity away?

[CraigyMc]

rubystone said:

How could one 'throw' electricity away?

Plenty of ways to do that, but they all lead to energy having to be dissipated, and I'd suggest that's principally going to be in the form of heat.

If you think about it, all the current KERS systems already need a way to dump excess KERS charge, because the drivers cannot tolerate shutting the harvest off through the lap at the point where the battery is full without the braking system being unpredictable.

Hypothetically, lets say that a circuit has 10 braking zones, and our kers system can get enough energy to fully charge in just 7 of those.

Do you want the brakes to feel "KERS-free" for the last 3 corners of the lap, or instead do you just take the electricity and dump it into a big resistor for the last 3 corners so that the brakes feel the same the whole way round each lap?
I propose that the teams could be doing the latter, and that the system I suggested in my previous post is simply an extension of it.

Again, all just theory.

[toppstuff]

CraigyMc said:

Again, all just theory.

Personally, I think there may more to it than just theory.

Look at an aerial shot of Sebs RB at the start of each race he leads from pole. As he exits the first few corners, he instantly leaps forward 2,3,4 car lengths,without any oversteer or struggle whatsoever. His RB simply has much more traction and grip than any other car, Webbers included. We are not the only people wondering how this is achieved - while other drivers are managing wheelspin, Seb seems to be able to just plant it and take a few car lengths out of the chasing pack. Hence the conspiracy theories…

The KERS system inevitably causes a degree of drag as it harvests energy. It follows, therefore, that it should be perfectly possible to use this process in reverse to effectively manage the torque going to the rear wheels - add in some slip and yaw sensors and some tech gubbins and in theory the KERS could help you manage traction more efficiently. And it would all be controllable simply by selecting different maps from the steering wheel.

Tin foil hat time.

I am not saying that this is happening. But this is what the conspiracy theorists are wondering.

[vonuber]

Have you never wondered how Ferrari do such fantastic starts?

[toppstuff]

vonuber said:

Have you never wondered how Ferrari do such fantastic starts?

Well they don't always do they?

Looking at Ferrari's results, particularly Alonso, he certainly does not get his points from getting near the front and staying there. He usually seems to climb a few positions over the race with undercuts and some overtakes.

When was the last time Alonso pushed his way to the front and stayed there? I can't recall. But that may be because my memory is fading

[Efbe]

toppstuff said:

vonuber said:

Have you never wondered how Ferrari do such fantastic starts?

Well they don't always do they?

Looking at Ferrari's results, particularly Alonso, he certainly does not get his points from getting near the front and staying there. He usually seems to climb a few positions over the race with undercuts and some overtakes.

When was the last time Alonso pushed his way to the front and stayed there? I can't recall. But that may be because my memory is fading

from what I have seen over the past few seasons he usually leapfrogs at least one row at the start. it may actually be where he gets most of his passes?!?

unfortunately for me I have a poor memory for such things, but has he always been so good at launches?

[vonuber]

This year has been a running theme if their fantastic starts, if I get time I'll compile some end of first lap improvement stats.
I am sure they have some form of launch control or similar.

[Efbe]

vonuber said:

This year has been a running theme if their fantastic starts, if I get time I'll compile some end of first lap improvement stats.
I am sure they have some form of launch control or similar.

will be interesting to see.

I would like to think he is just great at starts, as vettel is just great at gaining traction on exiting a corner. I'm not naive though!

[beez]

Didnt Alonso also have great starts when he was with Renault? Though that was the TC era.

[oyster]

toppstuff said:

AFC1886 said:

Anyone know how every race, Vettel is able to pull out a 2sec lead on the first lap? I think you would have to be on drugs to believe that it's down to Vettel's extra 'skill', rather than something on his car. Hopefully the guy Mclaren have pinched from Redbull will unlock the secrets.

It is amazing isn't it? When you look at the aeriel helicopter shot looking down on the track ( such as last weekend ) as Seb leads the way out of the first corner you see him instantly pull out 2 or 3 car lengths, he has so much more grip than anyone else. It is very, very impressive and also rather baffling. There is no sideways grappling with wheelspin, no corrections at the wheel, he just presses on the go pedal earlier and harder than anyone else can and soon has a 2 sec lead on the first lap.

Bloody amazing. I can see why the other drivers have given up.

When Senna does it and passes 5 cars in doing so it's because he's a genuis. When Vettel does it, it's because his car is magic.

Hypocritical no?

[toppstuff]

oyster said:

When Senna does it and passes 5 cars in doing so it's because he's a genuis. When Vettel does it, it's because his car is magic.

Hypocritical no?

Not at all. I don't rate Senna the way others do. I'd have the same things to say about Senna that I am saying about Vettel.

Don't get me wrong - I have nothing but praise for the chap. He is a very worthy WDC.

I guess, however, that I am from the Frank Williams school of thought when it comes to drivers. I therefore instinctively push back against hero worship where drivers are concerned.

I also think that, all things being equal, if one was to produce a detailed attribution analysis of the success of Red Bull in WDC, my pie chart would have a huge section headed "Adrian Newey", another huge section headed "RB engineering and team" and a smaller portion headed "Sebastien Vettel". Other people would attribute a greater slice to Sebastien than I would. Thats fair enough. But I don't buy it.

The same would be true of Senna, Alonso and Schumacher.

[Efbe]

toppstuff said:

Not at all. I don't rate Senna the way others do. I'd have the same things to say about Senna that I am saying about Vettel.

Don't get me wrong - I have nothing but praise for the chap. He is a very worthy WDC.

I guess, however, that I am from the Frank Williams school of thought when it comes to drivers. I therefore instinctively push back against hero worship where drivers are concerned.

I also think that, all things being equal, if one was to produce a detailed attribution analysis of the success of Red Bull in WDC, my pie chart would have a huge section headed "Adrian Newey", another huge section headed "RB engineering and team" and a smaller portion headed "Sebastien Vettel". Other people would attribute a greater slice to Sebastien than I would. Thats fair enough. But I don't buy it.

The same would be true of Senna, Alonso and Schumacher.

so why did you go batsh!t when I asked you(and others) to explain why you like Alonso so much.

you just described him as 'special' and refrained from answering anything constructively.

[TheArchitect]

beez said:

Didnt Alonso also have great starts when he was with Renault? Though that was the TC era.

IIRC they used a sensor in the front wing to detect the jump start sensors in the concrete from deactivating. Or I could of fallen for a trap!

[toppstuff]

Efbe said:

so why did you go batsh!t when I asked you(and others) to explain why you like Alonso so much.

you just described him as 'special' and refrained from answering anything constructively.

Alonso is special in that sometimes he seems to perform better than expected IMO, taking into account the equipment he is given.

I think Vettel is special as well - you can't be 4 x WDC if you aren't, but I think it is harder to make the leap that Vettel is one of the best when he has generally had a car advantage in his career. When he lacked a car advantage, he was just another driver.

Alonso has a longer career and has driven more cars for more teams, so we can more easily assess him inside different environments. We can't do that with Vettel yet, which is why , although he is clearly very good, I reserve judgment on "greatness".

[oyster]

toppstuff said:

CraigyMc said:

Again, all just theory.

Personally, I think there may more to it than just theory.

Look at an aerial shot of Sebs RB at the start of each race he leads from pole. As he exits the first few corners, he instantly leaps forward 2,3,4 car lengths,without any oversteer or struggle whatsoever. His RB simply has much more traction and grip than any other car, Webbers included. We are not the only people wondering how this is achieved - while other drivers are managing wheelspin, Seb seems to be able to just plant it and take a few car lengths out of the chasing pack. Hence the conspiracy theories…

The KERS system inevitably causes a degree of drag as it harvests energy. It follows, therefore, that it should be perfectly possible to use this process in reverse to effectively manage the torque going to the rear wheels - add in some slip and yaw sensors and some tech gubbins and in theory the KERS could help you manage traction more efficiently. And it would all be controllable simply by selecting different maps from the steering wheel.

Tin foil hat time.

I am not saying that this is happening. But this is what the conspiracy theorists are wondering.

There are 2 other more plausible reasons:

1. Because he's out in front he has undisturbed airflow over his wings and hence has more downforce.

2. He's able to use the full width of the track to carry more corner speed and have more traction, whereas other cars behind are squabbling more and compromising their racing lines.


And of course some cars have better traction than others, remember Korea with Hamilton and Hulkenburg. Are you saying the Sauber has TC as well?