Honda - another disaster ?
Discussion
I think Honda in the moto gp has probably been down to the skill of a certain rider in recent times and it's known that the engine isn't as good as the rest.
I've never cared for mclaren, Williams and Ferrari yes but never mclaren even in there successful years.
Too much appears to be being blamed on the engine, and the fact it goes pop and doesn't seem that quick everyone looks to Honda and to at the actual chassis. If it wasn't for alonso I doubt last year would have been so kind to them
I've never cared for mclaren, Williams and Ferrari yes but never mclaren even in there successful years.
Too much appears to be being blamed on the engine, and the fact it goes pop and doesn't seem that quick everyone looks to Honda and to at the actual chassis. If it wasn't for alonso I doubt last year would have been so kind to them
steve-5snwi said:
I think Honda in the moto gp has probably been down to the skill of a certain rider in recent times and it's known that the engine isn't as good as the rest.
I've never cared for mclaren, Williams and Ferrari yes but never mclaren even in there successful years.
Too much appears to be being blamed on the engine, and the fact it goes pop and doesn't seem that quick everyone looks to Honda and to at the actual chassis. If it wasn't for alonso I doubt last year would have been so kind to them
Honda's Motogp effort has struggled the last couple of years.I've never cared for mclaren, Williams and Ferrari yes but never mclaren even in there successful years.
Too much appears to be being blamed on the engine, and the fact it goes pop and doesn't seem that quick everyone looks to Honda and to at the actual chassis. If it wasn't for alonso I doubt last year would have been so kind to them
Kept at the top by the talents of by far the best rider n the grid, its no secret a lot of the HRC designers & engineers were moved over to HRD to work on the F1 project, and because of this the 2 wheeled effort has struggled.
Cant see it getting any better for either side whilst the F1 project struggles.
janesmith1950 said:
)
Always loved Ron Dennis, however I can't help but think he's run the team into a cul-de-sac. The Mercedes team appears outwardly to have inherited the spirit and nouse I used to love McLaren for.
Sad times.
Ron made a few poor decisions which have been disastrous.... (after many decisions that were excellent)Always loved Ron Dennis, however I can't help but think he's run the team into a cul-de-sac. The Mercedes team appears outwardly to have inherited the spirit and nouse I used to love McLaren for.
Sad times.
The whitmarsh period turned the team into a political fighting ground. Had previously single mindedly pursued performance, but instead it was internal politics and positioning.
And Mercedes to Honda. There was some logic, but it amounted to a complete gamble at very long odds. I wonder where they would have been in 16 with the Mercedes PU?
Hungrymc said:
Ron made a few poor decisions which have been disastrous.... (after many decisions that were excellent)
The whitmarsh period turned the team into a political fighting ground. Had previously single mindedly pursued performance, but instead it was internal politics and positioning.
And Mercedes to Honda. There was some logic, but it amounted to a complete gamble at very long odds. I wonder where they would have been in 16 with the Mercedes PU?
Embarrasing themselves like in 2014 when they got spanked by the same engined williams and only just about beat force india. Sorry but their problems are far more than the engine, they are a midfield team... they need to stop thinking they're a top team in a bit-of-a-lull, somethings obviously wrong so work out what it is and fix it. The whitmarsh period turned the team into a political fighting ground. Had previously single mindedly pursued performance, but instead it was internal politics and positioning.
And Mercedes to Honda. There was some logic, but it amounted to a complete gamble at very long odds. I wonder where they would have been in 16 with the Mercedes PU?
rdjohn said:
Anyone seen the piece on Motorsport.com saying that Honda went through a season's worth of engines last week.
I don't think that it could get any worse than that info.
Their hope of 5th on the WCC is looking way off right now.
Have honda themselves ever publically asked not to expect too much before?I don't think that it could get any worse than that info.
Their hope of 5th on the WCC is looking way off right now.
Makes you wonder just how bad this engines going to be.
hairyben said:
Embarrasing themselves like in 2014 when they got spanked by the same engined williams and only just about beat force india. Sorry but their problems are far more than the engine, they are a midfield team... they need to stop thinking they're a top team in a bit-of-a-lull, somethings obviously wrong so work out what it is and fix it.
I agree, they lost their way in the whitmarsh era. Politics and spin and in-fighting instead of being technically lead. Haven't started to catch up the lost time, and I think Ron was desperate and so rolled the dice in the hope of landing an advantage (however unlikely that was). Hungrymc said:
I agree, they lost their way in the whitmarsh era. Politics and spin and in-fighting instead of being technically lead. Haven't started to catch up the lost time, and I think Ron was desperate and so rolled the dice in the hope of landing an advantage (however unlikely that was).
I had the feeling the rot started in 07 with all that went on, but with the recent news regarding ron and the internal spats and politics perhaps I put too much emphasis on spygate. Anyway its academic now, hopefully whatever was going on has now been put to bed and they can focus on the racing business 100%.Flooble said:
I've often felt that McL are a case study in what happens to successful firms when they become "corporate".
...but that can equally be said for F1. When it was the domain of garagistas, sponsors, circuits that people could get to, pit-lane walkabouts, terrestrial TV, it was followed by ordinary fans in their droves.
Comparatively, it now seems to have made itself an irrelevance. A niche sport, for the Paddock Club in Azerbajan, where corporate, Mercedes, Ferrari and McLaren can take their high-rolling "partners".
Oh, and just a few of us "hanger-ons"
Flooble said:
I've often felt that McL are a case study in what happens to successful firms when they become "corporate".
Becoming more corporate hasn't hurt Mercedes F1 at all.I think McLaren's problem is that it has had a lot of problems growing from a small to a medium sized company, rather than the structure itself. Ron thought as much a few years ago and tried to refocus the racing team into just doing that: racing.
It's also the case that you need stability in these teams to get past storming and norming and into performing. It takes perhaps 3+ years, but when everyone's panicking, there are changes every few months...
CraigyMc said:
Becoming more corporate hasn't hurt Mercedes F1 at all.
I think McLaren's problem is that it has had a lot of problems growing from a small to a medium sized company, rather than the structure itself. Ron thought as much a few years ago and tried to refocus the racing team into just doing that: racing.
It's also the case that you need stability in these teams to get past storming and norming and into performing. It takes perhaps 3+ years, but when everyone's panicking, there are changes every few months...
Interesting, I feel (as an outsider) that Mercedes is still closer to a better funded "Brawn" than McLaren - Niki Lauda still seems to have a tendency to say what he feels and regret it later, which you would never have had from Ron Dennis (I know that is not comparing exact like-for-like roles - what is Niki's job anyway?). Mercedes don't, from what I can see, seem to spend a huge amount of time blaming different parts of the team or expending more of their efforts on PR, spin and press releases than on the engineering. I think McLaren's problem is that it has had a lot of problems growing from a small to a medium sized company, rather than the structure itself. Ron thought as much a few years ago and tried to refocus the racing team into just doing that: racing.
It's also the case that you need stability in these teams to get past storming and norming and into performing. It takes perhaps 3+ years, but when everyone's panicking, there are changes every few months...
I may be wrong, but that's my perception. I feel like McLaren is one of those companies where everyone is more interested in their own career than the company itself.
I think Niki's job is just there to sometimes say " hold on a minute, this, or that is just BS"
We tend to think of Toto as being a nice guy who sounds a bit like Arny. In reality, he, like Niki, is a very successful businessman - a big shareholder, who happens to love motorsport, at the highest level.
I think Red Bull is the ultimate team performer, they just have sufficient of the best guys and motivate them really well. Though I am never sure if their music choice after the race is to motivate their guys, or pee-off the guys next door - their closest competitors.
Ferrari are permanently hobbled by a tendency towards blame culture. When Mercedes weren't performing, they just recruited better and better guys in large numbers. That was probably a Ross Brawn long-term strategy. Being stuck in Italy, Ferrari will inevitably suffer.
But McLaren just seem to be failing at every level. They are throwing money at everything, but in reality are going backwards. They believe their own hype and yet will probably lose again this year to Force India, a very small team with a virtually bankrupt owner, but who are motivated to achieve the impossible and don't take themselves too seriously. You cannot draw a more stark comparison in the style of Bob Fernley and Zac Brown, or Eric Boulier.
In fairness to Eric he looks more like "the rabbit caught in the head lights" every time a camera is stuck in front of him. I think he knows where the exit sign is located.
We tend to think of Toto as being a nice guy who sounds a bit like Arny. In reality, he, like Niki, is a very successful businessman - a big shareholder, who happens to love motorsport, at the highest level.
I think Red Bull is the ultimate team performer, they just have sufficient of the best guys and motivate them really well. Though I am never sure if their music choice after the race is to motivate their guys, or pee-off the guys next door - their closest competitors.
Ferrari are permanently hobbled by a tendency towards blame culture. When Mercedes weren't performing, they just recruited better and better guys in large numbers. That was probably a Ross Brawn long-term strategy. Being stuck in Italy, Ferrari will inevitably suffer.
But McLaren just seem to be failing at every level. They are throwing money at everything, but in reality are going backwards. They believe their own hype and yet will probably lose again this year to Force India, a very small team with a virtually bankrupt owner, but who are motivated to achieve the impossible and don't take themselves too seriously. You cannot draw a more stark comparison in the style of Bob Fernley and Zac Brown, or Eric Boulier.
In fairness to Eric he looks more like "the rabbit caught in the head lights" every time a camera is stuck in front of him. I think he knows where the exit sign is located.
rdjohn said:
In fairness to Eric he looks more like "the rabbit caught in the head lights" every time a camera is stuck in front of him. I think he knows where the exit sign is located.
But to go where? The other top teams are seemingly locked out, and McLaren are well funded compared to Sauber, etc.janesmith1950 said:
McLaren the F1 team is f
ked, as it stands.
They firstly need a proper engine (we all know which one) and then spend very big to attract all the design talent.
Nobody worth their salt will be attracted to the team as it is now.
They managed to attract Prodromou. Although this year's car will tell us just what impact he has had and whether he really was a contributor to RBR's success.ked, as it stands. They firstly need a proper engine (we all know which one) and then spend very big to attract all the design talent.
Nobody worth their salt will be attracted to the team as it is now.
rdjohn said:
...
But McLaren just seem to be failing at every level. They are throwing money at everything, but in reality are going backwards. They believe their own hype ...
Yes, I think that sums up what I feel about "going corporate"; where a company is so driven by marketing/PR/internal politics that the ability to say "actually, what we are doing is stupid" becomes impossible - good people who can do so look for the exit and gradually the company becomes a bunch of "yes men" who can't face reality. That's how I feel anyhow ... world of difference to a properly run business which can be any size.But McLaren just seem to be failing at every level. They are throwing money at everything, but in reality are going backwards. They believe their own hype ...
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