2021 Cost Cap Breaches

[kambites]

I'm not sure why Wolff is being singled out here either. I've seen statements from at least four team principles saying "two teams are now known to have breached the cost cap in 2021, one by a small amount and one by a large amount; and several have hinted at the latter being Redbull. It feels like the Redbull fans are desperate for this to be sour grapes from Mercedes when, as far as I can tell, it's nothing to do with Mercedes whatsoever beyond the fact that the Media inevitably home in on them.

[Evercross]

MiniMan64 said:

Because the FIA have only just got around to certifying the teams off, due next week officially I believe. That’s where the leak has appeared from. How it takes nearly a year to complete however….

Too much wrong with this IMO. If it was a leak from within the FIA then that is a problem within itself. The FIA more than ever needs to be seen to be non-partisan, and whoever was party to any alleged information that the cost cap was breached is now under suspicion.

This just reeks of bullst to unsettle the championship and create controversy just as it is about to be wrapped up.

[McGee_22]

Evercross said:

I'm with RacerMike on this. That this rumour was broken by a German media outlet and Toto is now all over it with insinuations but no actual working to back up his allegations reeks to me of sour grapes and an attempt to justify an objectively crap season to his shareholders, who are addicted to the success they have enjoyed since the hybrid era started.

RB are the perceived bad boys so a fair chunk of observers are prepared to believe this allegation without any evidence being presented.

This is supposed to relate to 2021 accounts so why raise it now? I suspect that if Mercedes' porpoising slug had been the fastest car on the grid this season this 'story' would never have materialised.

For someone who posts so eloquently on other threads you seem to have taken some monster sized mental leap pills this morning.

Just a simple question for you (and any other Red Bull fans) if you can answer it, if Red Bull have breached the Budget Cap for 2021, and it is a major breach, which one or all of the following FIA penalties should be administered for the 2021 season breach...

*Deduction of Drivers and Constructors Championship points
*Suspension from one or more stages of a competition
*Suspension from an entire competition
*Exclusion from the Championship
*Reduction of the cost cap

[GiantCardboardPlato]

jsf said:

Brundle saying whatever happens, it shouldn't affect last years results.

That flat out condoning cheating, and it's wrong.

I get the feeling we will see another post AD cover up from Sky, where they tried to gaslight everyone.

I really don’t get this attitude.

If the past results include a winner who you later found out broke the rules, they’re not results, are they? Because the winner was not in the competition. They were doing something else. That means they didn’t win.

Yes it would be embarrassing I guess, and awkward, and red bull would have to repay prize money I guess, but all of that is better than knowingly calling a cheater the winner.

Many other sports have dealt with this by retroactive disqualification. Cycling, olympics, etc with drug testing, for example.

If you find out a competitor cheated you remove them from the results by disqualification. Anything else discredits you more than that. Because you say that you are ok with cheating as long as punishment is sufficiently awkward. You put yourself in a position as a sport/regulator where you diminish your own authority /!: weaken your ability to enforce the rules.

[Evercross]

McGee_22 said:

For someone who posts so eloquently on other threads you seem to have taken some monster sized mental leap pills this morning.

I just see lots of people doing the Judge Dredd thing - guilty as charged lets talk about the punishment...

McGee_22 said:

Just a simple question for you (and any other Red Bull fans) if you can answer it, if Red Bull have breached the Budget Cap for 2021, and it is a major breach, which one or all of the following FIA penalties should be administered for the 2021 season breach...

Quite.

[GiantCardboardPlato]

Evercross said:

I'm with RacerMike on this. That this rumour was broken by a German media outlet and Toto is now all over it with insinuations but no actual working to back up his allegations reeks to me of sour grapes and an attempt to justify an objectively crap season to his shareholders, who are addicted to the success they have enjoyed since the hybrid era started.

RB are the perceived bad boys so a fair chunk of observers are prepared to believe this allegation without any evidence being presented.

This is supposed to relate to 2021 accounts so why raise it now? I suspect that if Mercedes' porpoising slug had been the fastest car on the grid this season this 'story' would never have materialised.

It’s being raised now because the process of Inspecting the accounts is different finished and the analyses will returned to teams next week.

[jules_s]

MiniMan64 said:

Evercross said:

I'm with RacerMike on this. That this rumour was broken by a German media outlet and Toto is now all over it with insinuations but no actual working to back up his allegations reeks to me of sour grapes and an attempt to justify an objectively crap season to his shareholders, who are addicted to the success they have enjoyed since the hybrid era started.

RB are the perceived bad boys so a fair chunk of observers are prepared to believe this allegation without any evidence being presented.

This is supposed to relate to 2021 accounts so why raise it now? I suspect that if Mercedes' porpoising slug had been the fastest car on the grid this season this 'story' would never have materialised.

Because the FIA have only just got around to certifying the teams off, due next week officially I believe. That’s where the leak has appeared from. How it takes nearly a year to complete however….

It's not just Toto though is it? Ferrari and McLaren also voicing concerns

The McLaren guys was saying they were laying off staff and reducing wages while RB were doing the opposite

[GiantCardboardPlato]

MiniMan64 said:

Because the FIA have only just got around to certifying the teams off, due next week officially I believe. That’s where the leak has appeared from. How it takes nearly a year to complete however….

It actually was supposed to be finished in June, and then August, and now finally next week. The delays themselves are pretty suggestive of some issues.

[McGee_22]

Evercross said:

McGee_22 said:

For someone who posts so eloquently on other threads you seem to have taken some monster sized mental leap pills this morning.

I just see lots of people doing the Judge Dredd thing - guilty as charged lets talk about the punsihment...

McGee_22 said:

Just a simple question for you (and any other Red Bull fans) if you can answer it, if Red Bull have breached the Budget Cap for 2021, and it is a major breach, which one or all of the following FIA penalties should be administered for the 2021 season breach...

Quite.

It seem you missed the word 'if' in my question - at the moment Red Bull are not guilty of anything, but you obviously are super protective of CH, MV et al so can't or won't answer a simple question about what you think should happen if they are found guilty of a major breach.

Fair enough - always thought from your posts you had a bit more about you than that.

Never mind - it'll all come out on Wednesday and we'll find out who breached what and whether the FIA have the stones to stand behind their rules or whether like Michael Masi they just want to turn F1 into WWE

[Evercross]

jules_s said:

It's not just Toto though is it? Ferrari and McLaren also voicing concerns

The McLaren guys was saying they were laying off staff and reducing wages while RB were doing the opposite.

The budget cap is the can-of-worms that is now open. The ways in which every team could circumvent it could fill hundreds of pages of a thread in itself.

I read on a different forum the suggestion that all it would take is for a works team to have "road car technology" R&D money being spent on something that miraculously they discover is relevant to their F1 program. I am not implying that is happening, but there is also a hundred ways in which by pointing the finger at someone else it takes the investigation away from one's self.

Short of F1 becoming a one-make series or a prescribed car, the budget cap was always going to be a managed joke.

[Evercross]

McGee_22 said:

It seem you missed the word 'if' in my question.

It was a leading question.

Try addressing the issue of 'if' a breach has actually taken place or not before jumping to the next stage?

[CharlesElliott]

Does anyone know what actually happens on Wednesday? That is, do we hear what the breaches were *and* the punishments? Or do we just get that Team A and B are found in breach of the cap and then there is a WMC meeting or similar to hear arguments and decide on the penalty?

[Evercross]

jsf said:

I'll wait until we have the "facts" before finding anyone guilty, but if they are, they should have the book thrown at them. The body language and demeanour doesn't look good, but lets see what happens next week.

I am just finding it very hard to believe that this is something any team could bluff their way out of. Serving a set of accounts that shows a team breached the cap is suicide if the penalties are so clearly laid out.

Gambling that the FIA will not apply retrospective punishments is one thing, but knowing that the FIA would not want to nullify past results to maintain credibility would only make them more likely to apply the maximum punishment going forward.

This just does not make sense at an objective level. If Toto Wolff had expressed surprise at the allegations I might have given them more credence, but his statement that it has been an 'open secret' in the paddock stinks of intentional tactics to put doubt on the 2022 championship as retribution.

Even if nothing comes out of this there is the lingering notion amongst Mercedes fans that the FIA and Red Bull are in collusion and Wolff has just stoked that notion once again for his own ends.

[AW111]

Evercross said:

McGee_22 said:

It seem you missed the word 'if' in my question.

It was a leading question.

Try addressing the issue of 'if' a breach has actually taken place or not before jumping to the next stage?

I see the RB apologists are out in full force.

Why was that question so hard to answer?

[Blib]

Evercross said:

This is supposed to relate to 2021 accounts so why raise it now? I suspect that if Mercedes' porpoising slug had been the fastest car on the grid this season this 'story' would never have materialised.

This is a politically calculated move. Of that there is no doubt.

The Race podcast suggest that the advantage gained by a team last three seasons.

1) '21 - where they could continue to develop the car while their competitors hit the cap and stopped.
2) '22 - which frees resources, that in turn enables more development of the new generation car.
3) '23 - which runs into next season as you've a jump on the competition.

[CoolHands]

GiantCardboardPlato said:

It actually was supposed to be finished in June, and then August, and now finally next week. The delays themselves are pretty suggestive of some issues.

yup.
June-Oh st!
July-Ermmm
August-How can we minimise…
September-What punishment can we get away with
October-Ok time to go public

[ch37]

Given that multiple teams with car manufacturing divisions are known to have made staff redundant to meet the cost cap, it suggests it's not as easy as just moving staff to work on 'some aero for a hypercar' to cover it up. This will be forensic work that takes time.

[Evercross]

AW111 said:

I see the RB apologists are out in full force.

Why was that question so hard to answer?

I'll bite.

Two reasons - firstly, the penalties are clearly laid out so you don't need me or anyone else to rake over them.

Secondly, answering the question affirms in the heads of those who so want to believe the story and the alleged perpetrators, that the rumours are true.

You and others are looking for confirmation bias. Does it not occur to you that you might be getting played here? Would it not be better/interesting/relevant to consider why this story broke, and how, and when?

PS. I am and always have been a Ferrari fan, so no RB apologising from me.

[rscott]

I seem to recall reading that some senior Red Bull staff are paid by Red Bull Powertrain or Red Bull Advanced Technologies, not the F1 team.
Perhaps the auditors have decided those salaries should be part of the budget cap, for example.

[GiantCardboardPlato]

jsf said:

CharlesElliott said:

Does anyone know what actually happens on Wednesday? That is, do we hear what the breaches were *and* the punishments? Or do we just get that Team A and B are found in breach of the cap and then there is a WMC meeting or similar to hear arguments and decide on the penalty?

We will just get a list of who passed the audit and who didn't.

If there are teams who failed the audit, that then goes to a panel of judges to rule on, when that happens i don't know.

The panel is the ‘cost cap administration’ panel. CCA. The interesting thing that decisions they make can be appealed by competitors at the world motorsport council. So given that Mercedes/red bull are interested parties they would (I think?) be able to appeal the punishment if they felt it wasn’t actually a punishment.

Personally as far as I can see the only reasonable punishment for a severe breach of the rules conferring a meaningful advantage is i) disqualification from the championships for that year; ii) a reduction in budget for the next possible years equal to the previous overspend; iii) a lower limit for wind tunnel/CFD work for the subsequent year.

i) ensures the integrity of the competition
ii) means that the competitor gets no long term advantage from the overspend and resets them to the allowable spend over 2-3 years.
iii) is punishment for breaking the rules.

ii) would likely mean redundancies for a team spending extensively over. That may also put teams off from cheating because it would them less attractive employers.