Massa 2008 World Champion?
Discussion
Massa's title that year was ultimately lost in Hungary. Engine failure while leading on the penultimate lap lost him a significant amount of points.
Driving off with the fuel hose attached in Singapore didn't help much though but he was graciously gifted a race win in Spa when Hamilton got a ridiculously time penalty for conceding the lead (albeit for about 100metres) to Kimi.
Swings, roundabouts and ancient history now.
Driving off with the fuel hose attached in Singapore didn't help much though but he was graciously gifted a race win in Spa when Hamilton got a ridiculously time penalty for conceding the lead (albeit for about 100metres) to Kimi.
Swings, roundabouts and ancient history now.
anonymous_user said:
In the history of F1 how many race results have been annulled because a competitor cheated?
He's not looking for the race to be annulled. I think his lawyers realise that him actually becoming 2008 world champion isn't going to happen.However, they are pushing for compensation because they think he should have been world champion in 2008 and achieved the financial compensation in his subsequent career for being so.
This is a strange tactic, normally taken by those without a lot of money - a status which I can't think applies to Massa, having raced for Ferrari for 8 years and, I'm sure, been paid a lot to do so.
I also can't see how they're going to get around the 'treading on a butterfly' theory.
i.e, Yes - he may have won in Singapore if Renault hadn't cheated or the race may have been voided. However, maybe as a consequence of that, the events in the following races - Japan, China and Brazil - may have transpired differently.
Muzzer79 said:
anonymous_user said:
In the history of F1 how many race results have been annulled because a competitor cheated?
He's not looking for the race to be annulled. I think his lawyers realise that him actually becoming 2008 world champion isn't going to happen.However, they are pushing for compensation because they think he should have been world champion in 2008 and achieved the financial compensation in his subsequent career for being so.
This is a strange tactic, normally taken by those without a lot of money - a status which I can't think applies to Massa, having raced for Ferrari for 8 years and, I'm sure, been paid a lot to do so.
I also can't see how they're going to get around the 'treading on a butterfly' theory.
i.e, Yes - he may have won in Singapore if Renault hadn't cheated or the race may have been voided. However, maybe as a consequence of that, the events in the following races - Japan, China and Brazil - may have transpired differently.
Frimley111R said:
Muzzer79 said:
anonymous_user said:
In the history of F1 how many race results have been annulled because a competitor cheated?
He's not looking for the race to be annulled. I think his lawyers realise that him actually becoming 2008 world champion isn't going to happen.However, they are pushing for compensation because they think he should have been world champion in 2008 and achieved the financial compensation in his subsequent career for being so.
This is a strange tactic, normally taken by those without a lot of money - a status which I can't think applies to Massa, having raced for Ferrari for 8 years and, I'm sure, been paid a lot to do so.
I also can't see how they're going to get around the 'treading on a butterfly' theory.
i.e, Yes - he may have won in Singapore if Renault hadn't cheated or the race may have been voided. However, maybe as a consequence of that, the events in the following races - Japan, China and Brazil - may have transpired differently.
Abu Dhabi '21 was different - nobody has confessed to or been found to have been guilty of cheating - the only thing that was alluded to (but not admitted to) was incompetence. The FIA maintained that the rules had been followed.
Massa's case seems to be unique in that it's the only time I can think of where two things have combined
1. A competitor confessed to cheating
2. Someone senior in Formula One has admitted that they and the FIA knew about it at the time, but didn't act.
thegreenhell said:
It will be interesting if it goes to court, not least for Stefano Domenicali. He was Massa's Ferrari team boss in 2008, but is now the CEO of F1, so he would be representing both sides.
I don't think he would (be representing both sides)The case is for Massa and his claim for compensation in relation to not being properly awarded (in his view) the 2008 title.
The case does not relate to any claim Ferrari may have.
Massa may choose to call Domenicali as a witness, but given his current role I would think it unlikely.
Not that I think it'll go to court.
Muzzer79 said:
Abu Dhabi '21 was different - nobody has confessed to or been found to have been guilty of cheating - the only thing that was alluded to (but not admitted to) was incompetence. The FIA maintained that the rules had been followed.
I may be wrong but I understood that the official report confirmed it was "human error" that the rules were not correctly applied. In other words, the rules had been broken by Masi and thus his exit.Muzzer79 said:
I'm sure that Massa's legal team have used Ecclestone's comments as the springboard here - i.e the fact that he said that he and the FIA knew that cheating occurred but decided not to do anything about it.
Bernie will simply say he had no idea what he was saying in the interview. There is zero proof that the FIA knew about the incident before Piquet admitted it.MustangGT said:
Muzzer79 said:
I'm sure that Massa's legal team have used Ecclestone's comments as the springboard here - i.e the fact that he said that he and the FIA knew that cheating occurred but decided not to do anything about it.
Bernie will simply say he had no idea what he was saying in the interview. There is zero proof that the FIA knew about the incident before Piquet admitted it.paulguitar said:
Fundoreen said:
2 perfect f1 seasons ruined. Lewis sort of blundering into his first title at the expense of massa and ironically the 2021 one where max sort of lucked into it. Both at the last gasp.
Lewis did not 'blunder' into the 2008 title. It was nothing like 2021, where a rogue official decided things. It was decided on the last lap, yes, but there was no skullduggery. Massa can feel hard done by that the crash gate affair did not result in Renault being excluded from that race's result, but Hamilton was robbed of his Spa victory for no reason, so it sort of evens out anyway.Sad that the silly old fart can't just enjoy his reapings and still has to try for attention. Shadenfruedey though.
Muzzer79 said:
I'm sure that Massa's legal team have used Ecclestone's comments as the springboard here - i.e the fact that he said that he and the FIA knew that cheating occurred but decided not to do anything about it.
Abu Dhabi '21 was different - nobody has confessed to or been found to have been guilty of cheating - the only thing that was alluded to (but not admitted to) was incompetence. The FIA maintained that the rules had been followed.
Massa's case seems to be unique in that it's the only time I can think of where two things have combined
1. A competitor confessed to cheating
2. Someone senior in Formula One has admitted that they and the FIA knew about it at the time, but didn't act.
I highly doubt anyone 'knew' anything until a year later when Piquet spilled the beans ...there may have been suspicions, but without that admission nothing would've happenedAbu Dhabi '21 was different - nobody has confessed to or been found to have been guilty of cheating - the only thing that was alluded to (but not admitted to) was incompetence. The FIA maintained that the rules had been followed.
Massa's case seems to be unique in that it's the only time I can think of where two things have combined
1. A competitor confessed to cheating
2. Someone senior in Formula One has admitted that they and the FIA knew about it at the time, but didn't act.
Jasandjules said:
Muzzer79 said:
Abu Dhabi '21 was different - nobody has confessed to or been found to have been guilty of cheating - the only thing that was alluded to (but not admitted to) was incompetence. The FIA maintained that the rules had been followed.
I may be wrong but I understood that the official report confirmed it was "human error" that the rules were not correctly applied. In other words, the rules had been broken by Masi and thus his exit.But that's not deliberate cheating.
anonymous_user said:
Muzzer79 said:
I'm sure that Massa's legal team have used Ecclestone's comments as the springboard here - i.e the fact that he said that he and the FIA knew that cheating occurred but decided not to do anything about it.
Abu Dhabi '21 was different - nobody has confessed to or been found to have been guilty of cheating - the only thing that was alluded to (but not admitted to) was incompetence. The FIA maintained that the rules had been followed.
Massa's case seems to be unique in that it's the only time I can think of where two things have combined
1. A competitor confessed to cheating
2. Someone senior in Formula One has admitted that they and the FIA knew about it at the time, but didn't act.
I highly doubt anyone 'knew' anything until a year later when Piquet spilled the beans ...there may have been suspicions, but without that admission nothing would've happenedAbu Dhabi '21 was different - nobody has confessed to or been found to have been guilty of cheating - the only thing that was alluded to (but not admitted to) was incompetence. The FIA maintained that the rules had been followed.
Massa's case seems to be unique in that it's the only time I can think of where two things have combined
1. A competitor confessed to cheating
2. Someone senior in Formula One has admitted that they and the FIA knew about it at the time, but didn't act.
Ecclestone and Briatore were known to be close. It's highly possible that Ecclestone knew something was amiss - he's now confessed as much in an interview.
Teddy Lop said:
paulguitar said:
Fundoreen said:
2 perfect f1 seasons ruined. Lewis sort of blundering into his first title at the expense of massa and ironically the 2021 one where max sort of lucked into it. Both at the last gasp.
Lewis did not 'blunder' into the 2008 title. It was nothing like 2021, where a rogue official decided things. It was decided on the last lap, yes, but there was no skullduggery. Massa can feel hard done by that the crash gate affair did not result in Renault being excluded from that race's result, but Hamilton was robbed of his Spa victory for no reason, so it sort of evens out anyway.Sad that the silly old fart can't just enjoy his reapings and still has to try for attention. Shadenfruedey though.
thiscocks said:
In both cases the quickest driver over the season won so all is well.
All is not well. If it was a matter of just measuring the 'quickest driver over the season', we could dispense with all the pesky racing stuff and just do a load of time trials.
In 2021 Hamilton staged an unlikely comeback from an almost hopeless position, and in doing so piled enough pressure on Verstappen that the Dutchman started to crack. This is a really important part of sport. I think almost everyone agrees that MV would have been a worthy WDC, and deserved the title over the season, had he legitimately won it over the season, a season that included Abu Dhabi. However, he didn't do that.
2008 was a bit different, as ultimately the crashgate debacle did not change the result.
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