Official 2021 Azerbaijan Grand Prix Thread ***SPOILERS***
Discussion
ajprice said:
Mercedes debrief
These are always brilliant, and especially so after a bad weekend. Lewis: T’was the “brake magic” button, pressed inadvertently while battling Perez, so when he got to the corner the brake bias was all the way forward. Pit strategy was optimal but the RBS were simply faster at the critical time. Damage from Max debris which they fixed under the red flag.
Valtteri: Went with a slightly higher downforce setting, 1/10th slower in the sim but makes it easier to warm the tyres and gave him more confidence. Was on a flyer in Q3 when red flag came out, struggled for temps in the race, vicious cycle of performance with tyre temps, so when stuck behind a nominally slower car the temps don’t go up, and the performance isn’t there, so can’t make progress.
Team: Need to understand why the drivers struggle so much with temps, Valtteri here and Lewis in Monaco. That said, these two tracks are outliers in the course of the season, they’re expecting to be very much on the pace at the next few events.
Usual bit about winning and losing together, learning from mistakes etc. They’ll be doing something about that magic button!
I'm interested that I don't see much comment on Mercedes taking new engines here but Honda staying with the ones that had already done several races (and Free Practices etc.)
Despite the theoretical power of a brand new engine, and DRS, the Mercedes still couldn't make up the whole gap on the straight. Which suggests the Honda engine is really powerful and has good reliability - not losing power as it ages.
Plus the Red Bulls still have a new engine up their sleeves while Mercedes have played that joker ...
Despite the theoretical power of a brand new engine, and DRS, the Mercedes still couldn't make up the whole gap on the straight. Which suggests the Honda engine is really powerful and has good reliability - not losing power as it ages.
Plus the Red Bulls still have a new engine up their sleeves while Mercedes have played that joker ...
For the engines, all the Merc and Ferrari teams had new engines, Renault, not sure, Honda didn't.
As Merc thought they had a disadvantage to Redbull, perhaps they thought the difference between old and new would make a tangible difference to points score.
If they're expecting to be far enough ahead at the next race or races, then it's worth a punt.
Also they might be gambling that there will be less than 23 races in the season.
I'm guessing Max will need a new gearbox now as well as new underpants.
As Merc thought they had a disadvantage to Redbull, perhaps they thought the difference between old and new would make a tangible difference to points score.
If they're expecting to be far enough ahead at the next race or races, then it's worth a punt.
Also they might be gambling that there will be less than 23 races in the season.
I'm guessing Max will need a new gearbox now as well as new underpants.
honda_exige said:
Not sure, guess its just the long straight nature of Baku. All ferrari and merc engined cars had new engines.
Interestingly all Honda engines have been running in a lower mode in every race after Bahrain. Apparently the engine blocks were built too 'tight' which gave rise to Vibrations. The next batch which might be in France has this issue rectified so they will be back at full power.
Got a source for this?Interestingly all Honda engines have been running in a lower mode in every race after Bahrain. Apparently the engine blocks were built too 'tight' which gave rise to Vibrations. The next batch which might be in France has this issue rectified so they will be back at full power.
If honda turn up with more power that sounds ominous for merc, regardless of circuit type.
talksthetorque said:
For the engines, all the Merc and Ferrari teams had new engines, Renault, not sure, Honda didn't.
As Merc thought they had a disadvantage to Redbull, perhaps they thought the difference between old and new would make a tangible difference to points score.
If they're expecting to be far enough ahead at the next race or races, then it's worth a punt.
Also they might be gambling that there will be less than 23 races in the season.
I'm guessing Max will need a new gearbox now as well as new underpants.
All the Mercedes and Ferrari teams took new parts, Honda didn't and Renault/Alpine just had new exhausts.As Merc thought they had a disadvantage to Redbull, perhaps they thought the difference between old and new would make a tangible difference to points score.
If they're expecting to be far enough ahead at the next race or races, then it's worth a punt.
Also they might be gambling that there will be less than 23 races in the season.
I'm guessing Max will need a new gearbox now as well as new underpants.
Post from early on in the thread:
Deesee said:
Honda have had the power units turned down since Bahrain in the Red Bill but not the AT.
Kiv these are the ‘22 units brought forward. So 2 years of evolution without the real world race testing.
Vibrations were causing issues with potential reliability, turning the engines down = less vibrations, I’ve seen it mentioned about 15/20kw.
Merc have made a change, as they wanted to run a more aggressive map in Baku.
The Merc is probably the highest downforce and drag car on the grid, so power wise needs that extra power for longer.
Hamilton was also quicker in a straight line than the Red Bulls in Baku, and the engine change should have paid off ( helped Seb to pass Gasly).
As mentioned on a previous race thread, there’s some real power hungry tracks coming up with France/Austria x2 /Silverstone & Spa in the next 6 races. You may see teams change again in this period.
Nb I think we will end up with another 18 ish race season, so a change now or in France is about right.
Arguably and in my opinion the Red Bull is the fastest car over one lap, but over a race distance they can not maintain the pace that Merc can & with that we are starting to see Merc running almost alternate strategy’s which Hamilton can deliver and Bottas (a fine driver if leading) seemingly can’t.
Im sure there was a graphic that Red Bull had lead 75% of the laps to date. Merc seem to have better pace at the end of the GP, which I would assume that Red Bull are turning the engines further down and or lifting / coasting.
I’m pretty sure however the Honda teams will have a new full set of PU for France.
Kiv these are the ‘22 units brought forward. So 2 years of evolution without the real world race testing.
Vibrations were causing issues with potential reliability, turning the engines down = less vibrations, I’ve seen it mentioned about 15/20kw.
Merc have made a change, as they wanted to run a more aggressive map in Baku.
The Merc is probably the highest downforce and drag car on the grid, so power wise needs that extra power for longer.
Hamilton was also quicker in a straight line than the Red Bulls in Baku, and the engine change should have paid off ( helped Seb to pass Gasly).
As mentioned on a previous race thread, there’s some real power hungry tracks coming up with France/Austria x2 /Silverstone & Spa in the next 6 races. You may see teams change again in this period.
Nb I think we will end up with another 18 ish race season, so a change now or in France is about right.
Arguably and in my opinion the Red Bull is the fastest car over one lap, but over a race distance they can not maintain the pace that Merc can & with that we are starting to see Merc running almost alternate strategy’s which Hamilton can deliver and Bottas (a fine driver if leading) seemingly can’t.
Im sure there was a graphic that Red Bull had lead 75% of the laps to date. Merc seem to have better pace at the end of the GP, which I would assume that Red Bull are turning the engines further down and or lifting / coasting.
I’m pretty sure however the Honda teams will have a new full set of PU for France.
ajprice said:
Deesee said:
Im sure there was a graphic that Red Bull had lead 75% of the laps to date. Merc seem to have better pace at the end of the GP, which I would assume that Red Bull are turning the engines further down and or lifting / coasting.
Laps led count after Monaco, before Baku
Monaco being 78 laps somewhat skews it.
g4ry13 said:
ajprice said:
Deesee said:
Im sure there was a graphic that Red Bull had lead 75% of the laps to date. Merc seem to have better pace at the end of the GP, which I would assume that Red Bull are turning the engines further down and or lifting / coasting.
Laps led count after Monaco, before BakuMonaco being 78 laps somewhat skews it.
That's the thing.. The fastest car in terms of race pace, is arguably best advised to not attempt to lead more laps than they need to.
One point about the Baku straight made by Rosberg before the race and Norris after the race is the wall at pit entry. If Max's car skewed the other way at the point he did and gone into the wall instead of sliding down the straight, it could have been nasty. https://wtf1.com/post/why-max-verstappens-crash-co...
ajprice said:
One point about the Baku straight made by Rosberg before the race and Norris after the race is the wall at pit entry. If Max's car skewed the other way at the point he did and gone into the wall instead of sliding down the straight, it could have been nasty. https://wtf1.com/post/why-max-verstappens-crash-co...
Webber said the same thing in the commentary, and Seb also said the same thing when interviewed afterwards. It sounds like it might have been a concern on the minds of a lot of drivers. And which way he went when the tyre burst was a lottery. Verstappen went one way, overcorrected (not a criticism, must have been close to impossible not to), and darted the other way to exit stage right. Stroll also went one way, overcorrected and went the other, twice I think, and ended up finally passengering off to his left.My first thought on seeing both of those, and I don't think it's a particularly reasonable thought because a lot of things other than the driver have changed since then of course, was how well Mansell did to keep it pointing straight in Adelaide 1986....
ajprice said:
One point about the Baku straight made by Rosberg before the race and Norris after the race is the wall at pit entry. If Max's car skewed the other way at the point he did and gone into the wall instead of sliding down the straight, it could have been nasty. https://wtf1.com/post/why-max-verstappens-crash-co...
article said:
Speaking to media after the race, FIA race director Michael Masi didn’t agree with Rosberg’s points.
“No, I disagree with that comment,” said Masi. “The pit entry and the entire circuit has been designed, and is homologated by the FIA as a Grade 1 circuit, and fulfils all of the various safety requirements that the FIA has within its regulation requirements. So no, I disagree.”
Just like Bahrain was a grade 1 circuit last year then...“No, I disagree with that comment,” said Masi. “The pit entry and the entire circuit has been designed, and is homologated by the FIA as a Grade 1 circuit, and fulfils all of the various safety requirements that the FIA has within its regulation requirements. So no, I disagree.”
thatsprettyshady said:
ajprice said:
One point about the Baku straight made by Rosberg before the race and Norris after the race is the wall at pit entry. If Max's car skewed the other way at the point he did and gone into the wall instead of sliding down the straight, it could have been nasty. https://wtf1.com/post/why-max-verstappens-crash-co...
article said:
Speaking to media after the race, FIA race director Michael Masi didn’t agree with Rosberg’s points.
“No, I disagree with that comment,” said Masi. “The pit entry and the entire circuit has been designed, and is homologated by the FIA as a Grade 1 circuit, and fulfils all of the various safety requirements that the FIA has within its regulation requirements. So no, I disagree.”
Just like Bahrain was a grade 1 circuit last year then...“No, I disagree with that comment,” said Masi. “The pit entry and the entire circuit has been designed, and is homologated by the FIA as a Grade 1 circuit, and fulfils all of the various safety requirements that the FIA has within its regulation requirements. So no, I disagree.”
If so that's incredibly weak, to the point he makes himself sound like a simplistic moron. Obviously the circuit is signed off by the FIA, that simply means they believe it to be safe at the time, not that further experiences can't reveal additional dangers that also need to be accounted for moving forwards.
Little in life annoys me more than an idiot pointing to worded policy rather than employ their own powers of common sense
TheDeuce said:
Is that really what Masi said..!?
If so that's incredibly weak, to the point he makes himself sound like a simplistic moron. Obviously the circuit is signed off by the FIA, that simply means they believe it to be safe at the time, not that further experiences can't reveal additional dangers that also need to be accounted for moving forwards.
Little in life annoys me more than an idiot pointing to worded policy rather than employ their own powers of common sense
He's basically said its safe because we said so. If so that's incredibly weak, to the point he makes himself sound like a simplistic moron. Obviously the circuit is signed off by the FIA, that simply means they believe it to be safe at the time, not that further experiences can't reveal additional dangers that also need to be accounted for moving forwards.
Little in life annoys me more than an idiot pointing to worded policy rather than employ their own powers of common sense
I don't think he's suitable for the job that he basically fell into before he was ready.
Multiple f
k ups in a short space of time, no safety car for 90 seconds after Max crashed, releasing cars onto a track with a crane last year, letting Leclerc drive around with no seatbelts for multiple laps with no action etc honda_exige said:
TheDeuce said:
Is that really what Masi said..!?
If so that's incredibly weak, to the point he makes himself sound like a simplistic moron. Obviously the circuit is signed off by the FIA, that simply means they believe it to be safe at the time, not that further experiences can't reveal additional dangers that also need to be accounted for moving forwards.
Little in life annoys me more than an idiot pointing to worded policy rather than employ their own powers of common sense
He's basically said its safe because we said so. If so that's incredibly weak, to the point he makes himself sound like a simplistic moron. Obviously the circuit is signed off by the FIA, that simply means they believe it to be safe at the time, not that further experiences can't reveal additional dangers that also need to be accounted for moving forwards.
Little in life annoys me more than an idiot pointing to worded policy rather than employ their own powers of common sense
I don't think he's suitable for the job that he basically fell into before he was ready.
Multiple f
k ups in a short space of time, no safety car for 90 seconds after Max crashed, releasing cars onto a track with a crane last year, letting Leclerc drive around with no seatbelts for multiple laps with no action etc It looks from that shot like five layers of TecPro on the pit entrance, with a standard three-layer Armco behind it. One might argue that the angle could be shallower, but they would have run simulations on various departures of cars from the track at that point, and worked out the optimum angle from there. Remember that they are also very concerned with preventing an accident car from coming back across the track, they’d prefer it to be contained if possible.
And yes, as with anything related to safety, they should keep running models based on actual incidents, and look again at the angle of the pit entrance. Continuous improvement and accident investigation got us to where we are today.
Hard to disagree with safety concerns re: Masi, he possibly needs to get an additional safety officer sitting next to him.
kiseca said:
ajprice said:
One point about the Baku straight made by Rosberg before the race and Norris after the race is the wall at pit entry. If Max's car skewed the other way at the point he did and gone into the wall instead of sliding down the straight, it could have been nasty. https://wtf1.com/post/why-max-verstappens-crash-co...
Webber said the same thing in the commentary, and Seb also said the same thing when interviewed afterwards. It sounds like it might have been a concern on the minds of a lot of drivers. And which way he went when the tyre burst was a lottery. Verstappen went one way, overcorrected (not a criticism, must have been close to impossible not to), and darted the other way to exit stage right. Stroll also went one way, overcorrected and went the other, twice I think, and ended up finally passengering off to his left.My first thought on seeing both of those, and I don't think it's a particularly reasonable thought because a lot of things other than the driver have changed since then of course, was how well Mansell did to keep it pointing straight in Adelaide 1986....
What's the alternative? a shallower angle gives a sharper pointy bit. Do you want to be driving towards a pointy bit at 300kph?
Re Mansell holding on to it:
I suspect the massive increase in aero between Mansell and Max's cars is the answer.
If you've got 6 tonnes of downforce at 300kph (2021 est) when your front right goes up in the air as your rear left starts dragging its
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