Official 2021 Emilia Romagna Grand Prix **SPOILERS**

[Supersam83]

Sandpit Steve said:

Supersam83 said:

This.


The fact is that hardly anyone on the F1 grid respects Bottas as he has been in the F1 championship-winning car since 2017 with not much to show for it.

In that time (4 seasons) he has only won 9 F1 races Vs 43 F1 wins for Hamilton.

At least Rosberg in his 4 seasons alongside Hamilton, Rosberg won 22 F1 races Vs 32 F1 wins for Hamilton.

All true. But if you want to drive the Mercedes, you’d better be the guy who picks up the maximum number of points on a bad day, not the guy who bins it going for a gap that was always going to disappear.

Well, Bottas hasn't been picking up the maximum number of points on a bad day tho.

If he was serving his purpose he would qualify right behind Hamilton and finish right behind him as well.

Wrong choice to replace Rosberg in the first place and never deserved to get the seat in the first place. Only got the seat as he was managed by Toto at the time.

Better choices to replace Rosberg at the time were Pascal Wehrlein or Esteban Ocon. At least until other drivers contracts were up for renewal.

[TheDeuce]

Supersam83 said:

Well, Bottas hasn't been picking up the maximum number of points on a bad day tho.

If he was serving his purpose he would qualify right behind Hamilton and finish right behind him as well.

Wrong choice to replace Rosberg in the first place and never deserved to get the seat in the first place. Only got the seat as he was managed by Toto at the time.

Better choices to replace Rosberg at the time were Pascal Wehrlein or Esteban Ocon. At least until other drivers contracts were up for renewal.

You know what... I would say that since joining Lewis at Merc Bottas has been very consistent at scooping whatever points Lewis leaves in his wake. There have been bad days which were 'too bad' for him to achieve that, but his points record overall is very strong - I would argue about as strong as it can be without him being so close that him and Lewis start to trip one another up.

I think if Bottas was 'better' as many people suggest another driver could be, it could as easily be worse for Merc WCC points, not better.

That said, I do wonder if Max being so close to Lewis this season is going to break Bottas' spirit before very long..

[mw88]

TheDeuce said:

You know what... I would say that since joining Lewis at Merc Bottas has been very consistent at scooping whatever points Lewis leaves in his wake. There have been bad days which were 'too bad' for him to achieve that, but his points record overall is very strong - I would argue about as strong as it can be without him being so close that him and Lewis start to trip one another up.

I think if Bottas was 'better' as many people suggest another driver could be, it could as easily be worse for Merc WCC points, not better.

That said, I do wonder if Max being so close to Lewis this season is going to break Bottas' spirit before very long..

I don't think it's Max that Bottas needs to worry about - It's Checo that will break his spirit if he gets up to speed in that car and doesn't do an Albon again

With the other Red Bull usually being 5th or 6th at best, if Perez can be right behind Verstappen it pushes Bottas off the podium.

I think reliability will come into it at some point, there was something on PlanetF1 (So probably wrong!) about the Honda runners looking at engine penalties soon - Think Perez and Tsunoda are close already (Control electronics/gearbox)

[kiseca]

Leithen said:

I suspect if you analysed the lap data and car positions you'd find that because of Bottas's poor qualifying and mid-field position he found himself stuck in traffic.

Everyone seems to accept that the Mercedes has a very narrow window in which the tyres operate and is very fast. Out of this window, as Hamilton showed in the initial laps, it is a bit of a dog. This will have made overtaking difficult for Bottas. Hamilton however, effectively had free air and was able eventually to get the car into the operating window and start to reel Verstappen in. Bottas never got the tyres to work.

His lap times and the lap times of those around him vs Hamilton would probably shed light on this.

That's a fair point. When the conditions were at their worst, Lewis was mostly in clear air, far enough behind Max not to be troubled by his dirty air. Bottas was, as you say, stuck in traffic on a circuit where overtaking is known to be difficult, made worse by the conditions meaning going off line was going to just get even slipperier.

By the time conditions had improved and Lewis found himself in a position where he needed to overtake people - and was successfully doing so, Bottas was no longer in the race.

To me on the face of it this race reminded me of Turkey last year where Lewis managed the conditions well and Bottas really, really struggled on a slippery track, so my first thought was that when the track gets really, really slippery, and Imola looked bad even considering it was wet, Bottas struggles with the car. But you're right, in clean air he'd possibly have been much further up the field.

[Mr Pointy]

TheDeuce said:

You know what... I would say that since joining Lewis at Merc Bottas has been very consistent at scooping whatever points Lewis leaves in his wake. There have been bad days which were 'too bad' for him to achieve that, but his points record overall is very strong - I would argue about as strong as it can be without him being so close that him and Lewis start to trip one another up.

I think if Bottas was 'better' as many people suggest another driver could be, it could as easily be worse for Merc WCC points, not better.

That said, I do wonder if Max being so close to Lewis this season is going to break Bottas' spirit before very long..

This could be a tricky season for Mercedes. If Verstappen is a bit ahead of Lewis on average & Perez is in the mix for third then unless Bottas can accept his job is to keep Perez down (& achieve it) then Mercedes could lose the WCC & spend a load of development time doing it. If Bottas can't beat Perez then he'll come under massive pressure & he's never shown to go well in that situation. Maybe Toto will be forced into bringing Russell in or abandoning the year & switching the development resources to the 2022 car.

[kiseca]

TheDeuce said:

Supersam83 said:

Well, Bottas hasn't been picking up the maximum number of points on a bad day tho.

If he was serving his purpose he would qualify right behind Hamilton and finish right behind him as well.

Wrong choice to replace Rosberg in the first place and never deserved to get the seat in the first place. Only got the seat as he was managed by Toto at the time.

Better choices to replace Rosberg at the time were Pascal Wehrlein or Esteban Ocon. At least until other drivers contracts were up for renewal.

You know what... I would say that since joining Lewis at Merc Bottas has been very consistent at scooping whatever points Lewis leaves in his wake. There have been bad days which were 'too bad' for him to achieve that, but his points record overall is very strong - I would argue about as strong as it can be without him being so close that him and Lewis start to trip one another up.

I think if Bottas was 'better' as many people suggest another driver could be, it could as easily be worse for Merc WCC points, not better.

That said, I do wonder if Max being so close to Lewis this season is going to break Bottas' spirit before very long..

I would disagree, to an extent. particularly when considered from the point of view of WCC points. I believe, as a team scoring points, Merc had stronger seasons with Rosberg than they did when Bottas joined. From 2014 to 2016, the two Merc drivers were comfortably 1st and 2nd in the championship.

In his first two seasons with Merc, Bottas was 3rd and 5th. He was then 2nd in 2019 and 2020, but last year he was in real danger of finishing 3rd again.

That means points for the team, and I don't know for sure but I think the teams are rewarded financially for the number of points they score, so it does hurt them not to be the two highest scoring drivers even if they still win the constructors title.

Total points for the team are not just down to the drivers of course, they also depend on the relative performance of the cars and the rest of the team members (and change in number of races and points scoring systems of course), but I do think if we look at the Merc hybrid years, the pattern does follow the fortunes of the second driver quite closely so the two points might be correlated to the driver change.

With Rosberg, Merc got 701, 703 and 765 points respectively from 2014 to 2016.
From 2017 to 2019, Merc got 668, 655 and 739 points with Bottas. They still won the title but without Bottas consistently being close to Lewis for those first two years, they dropped points, and therefore income. And left themselves more vulnerable to a strong performance from a competitor, which they fortunately didn't get then (at least not too strong for them to handle), but may well be having now.

I've ignored 2020 because with fewer races in the season I assume we'd see a drop that cannot possibly be attributed to Bottas, who came second anyway.

I'd say they want someone close to Lewis, just not someone who will crash into him (or who he will crash into) so both cars finish. If one of the Mercs can't beat their main rival, they want the other one to beat them. They don't really care that much which driver comes out on top, as nice as it would be to see Lewis get his 8th title, I firmly believe the constructors title is more important to them. The drivers are employees, there to help the team - a professional business - achieve its performance and financial goals.

[Byker28i]

TheDeuce said:

You know what... I would say that since joining Lewis at Merc Bottas has been very consistent at scooping whatever points Lewis leaves in his wake. There have been bad days which were 'too bad' for him to achieve that, but his points record overall is very strong - I would argue about as strong as it can be without him being so close that him and Lewis start to trip one another up.

I think if Bottas was 'better' as many people suggest another driver could be, it could as easily be worse for Merc WCC points, not better.

That said, I do wonder if Max being so close to Lewis this season is going to break Bottas' spirit before very long..

Historically I think I'd agree with that. This season might be telling though...

[Mark-C]

Byker28i said:

TheDeuce said:

You know what... I would say that since joining Lewis at Merc Bottas has been very consistent at scooping whatever points Lewis leaves in his wake. There have been bad days which were 'too bad' for him to achieve that, but his points record overall is very strong - I would argue about as strong as it can be without him being so close that him and Lewis start to trip one another up.

I think if Bottas was 'better' as many people suggest another driver could be, it could as easily be worse for Merc WCC points, not better.

That said, I do wonder if Max being so close to Lewis this season is going to break Bottas' spirit before very long..

Historically I think I'd agree with that. This season might be telling though...

Bottas needs to up his game because of Perez rather than Lewis or Max ... assuming Perez gets his act together. If Merc lose the WCC because of him then they'll definitely want a better second driver if Lewis stays. I guess it might not be so obvious that GR is that driver right now.

Another interesting sub-plot for the rest of what looks like a great season.

[mick987]

Mark-C said:

Bottas needs to up his game because of Perez rather than Lewis or Max ... assuming Perez gets his act together. If Merc lose the WCC because of him then they'll definitely want a better second driver if Lewis stays. I guess it might not be so obvious that GR is that driver right now.

Another interesting sub-plot for the rest of what looks like a great season.

I think there is a good chance Norris will be in the Mercedes next year

[Durzel]

Once Lewis is gone, presumably at the end of this season, all bets are off for Bottas imo - he needs to really set out his stall this season.

[FourWheelDrift]

Dark Helmet Marko is not pleased with Perez's Imola performance - https://www.crash.net/f1/gossip/976019/1/f1-gossip...

[Smollet]

[kiseca]

mick987 said:

Mark-C said:

Bottas needs to up his game because of Perez rather than Lewis or Max ... assuming Perez gets his act together. If Merc lose the WCC because of him then they'll definitely want a better second driver if Lewis stays. I guess it might not be so obvious that GR is that driver right now.

Another interesting sub-plot for the rest of what looks like a great season.

I think there is a good chance Norris will be in the Mercedes next year

3 races ago Russell was so good Mercedes didn't need Lewis, and Norris was a one lap wonder. Not saying that's what you were saying 3 races ago, but it's funny how quickly popular opinions change in Formula 1, and GR not being ready is certainly a popular opinion right now.

Whether or not every driver on the grid would have attempted that move, I don't know. He made a mistake, I think his reaction afterwards is more worrying as others have said, but remember he was battling for 9th place at the time. In a Williams. Up until the moment he binned it, he was having a good race, and it's easier to make a fast driver more consistent than it is to make a consistent driver faster.

[TheDeuce]

kiseca said:

TheDeuce said:

Supersam83 said:

Well, Bottas hasn't been picking up the maximum number of points on a bad day tho.

If he was serving his purpose he would qualify right behind Hamilton and finish right behind him as well.

Wrong choice to replace Rosberg in the first place and never deserved to get the seat in the first place. Only got the seat as he was managed by Toto at the time.

Better choices to replace Rosberg at the time were Pascal Wehrlein or Esteban Ocon. At least until other drivers contracts were up for renewal.

You know what... I would say that since joining Lewis at Merc Bottas has been very consistent at scooping whatever points Lewis leaves in his wake. There have been bad days which were 'too bad' for him to achieve that, but his points record overall is very strong - I would argue about as strong as it can be without him being so close that him and Lewis start to trip one another up.

I think if Bottas was 'better' as many people suggest another driver could be, it could as easily be worse for Merc WCC points, not better.

That said, I do wonder if Max being so close to Lewis this season is going to break Bottas' spirit before very long..

I would disagree, to an extent. particularly when considered from the point of view of WCC points. I believe, as a team scoring points, Merc had stronger seasons with Rosberg than they did when Bottas joined. From 2014 to 2016, the two Merc drivers were comfortably 1st and 2nd in the championship.

In his first two seasons with Merc, Bottas was 3rd and 5th. He was then 2nd in 2019 and 2020, but last year he was in real danger of finishing 3rd again.

That means points for the team, and I don't know for sure but I think the teams are rewarded financially for the number of points they score, so it does hurt them not to be the two highest scoring drivers even if they still win the constructors title.

Total points for the team are not just down to the drivers of course, they also depend on the relative performance of the cars and the rest of the team members (and change in number of races and points scoring systems of course), but I do think if we look at the Merc hybrid years, the pattern does follow the fortunes of the second driver quite closely so the two points might be correlated to the driver change.

With Rosberg, Merc got 701, 703 and 765 points respectively from 2014 to 2016.
From 2017 to 2019, Merc got 668, 655 and 739 points with Bottas. They still won the title but without Bottas consistently being close to Lewis for those first two years, they dropped points, and therefore income. And left themselves more vulnerable to a strong performance from a competitor, which they fortunately didn't get then (at least not too strong for them to handle), but may well be having now.

I've ignored 2020 because with fewer races in the season I assume we'd see a drop that cannot possibly be attributed to Bottas, who came second anyway.

I'd say they want someone close to Lewis, just not someone who will crash into him (or who he will crash into) so both cars finish. If one of the Mercs can't beat their main rival, they want the other one to beat them. They don't really care that much which driver comes out on top, as nice as it would be to see Lewis get his 8th title, I firmly believe the constructors title is more important to them. The drivers are employees, there to help the team - a professional business - achieve its performance and financial goals.

Well I obviously can't argue the numbers - and you make a good point that Rosberg was closer to Lewis in terms of competitiveness and also the team managed to scoop more points, in spite of the competition and occasional mishaps between the two..

I still wouldn't be quick to assume there was anyone better than Bottas for the team right now though. It's a question of who is available and also a question of how they turn out as a team mate. Rosberg did play a fair few games and put a lot of pressure on Lewis, but for the most part the pair didn't throw very much away as a result of their intra-team battle. They were good enough and professional enough to generally finish where their car deserved, regardless of how much they grew to loathe one another. The question is, is there anyone that is 'better' than Bottas that could replace him, who we can be fairly confident wouldn't in fact prove to be more of a problem pairing than Rosberg was? We assume George has the talent and the professionalism to be a team player, but we don't really know until he's in the seat and sniffs a chance at a title..

As for Merc caring more about WCC than WDC, in general you're right - they are after all a true constructor and manufacturer of road cars (by brand..). But this one WDC is different isn't it? They already have 7 consecutive WCC titles, does it matter if it's increased to 8? It's impressive either way. But MS's 7 title record can only ever be broken once, and if Lewis breaks it I would have thought it would be incredibly valuable for Merc to have him do so in their car. It's kind of the ultimate record to break in F1.

[TheDeuce]

mick987 said:

Mark-C said:

Bottas needs to up his game because of Perez rather than Lewis or Max ... assuming Perez gets his act together. If Merc lose the WCC because of him then they'll definitely want a better second driver if Lewis stays. I guess it might not be so obvious that GR is that driver right now.

Another interesting sub-plot for the rest of what looks like a great season.

I think there is a good chance Norris will be in the Mercedes next year

So much of this depends on whether or not Lewis remains for 22 - which itself must at least in part depend upon whether or not he gets the 8th title this year.

If he does leave then I would expect Merc to retain Bottas for one more year, purely to ensure they have one driver that they know can qualify very well going in to a new season. Anyone got any examples of a team that changed both drivers at once and benefitted from it the following season..?

If Lewis remains, Bottas will go.

Would Merc put the same second driver with Lewis as they would with Bottas..? If Bottas stayed for another year I could see GR being told to wait another year and someone else coming in to replace Lewis. They could probably attract just about anyone they wanted if they could convince them that they were well ahead with their 22' car.

[kiseca]

TheDeuce said:

Well I obviously can't argue the numbers - and you make a good point that Rosberg was closer to Lewis in terms of competitiveness and also the team managed to scoop more points, in spite of the competition and occasional mishaps between the two..

I still wouldn't be quick to assume there was anyone better than Bottas for the team right now though. It's a question of who is available and also a question of how they turn out as a team mate. Rosberg did play a fair few games and put a lot of pressure on Lewis, but for the most part the pair didn't throw very much away as a result of their intra-team battle. They were good enough and professional enough to generally finish where their car deserved, regardless of how much they grew to loathe one another. The question is, is there anyone that is 'better' than Bottas that could replace him, who we can be fairly confident wouldn't in fact prove to be more of a problem pairing than Rosberg was? We assume George has the talent and the professionalism to be a team player, but we don't really know until he's in the seat and sniffs a chance at a title..

As for Merc caring more about WCC than WDC, in general you're right - they are after all a true constructor and manufacturer of road cars (by brand..). But this one WDC is different isn't it? They already have 7 consecutive WCC titles, does it matter if it's increased to 8? It's impressive either way. But MS's 7 title record can only ever be broken once, and if Lewis breaks it I would have thought it would be incredibly valuable for Merc to have him do so in their car. It's kind of the ultimate record to break in F1.

I can remember a time when it wouldn't have been much of a struggle to think of drivers I thought were as good as Rosberg

At the moment you are right. Bottas seemed like a reasonable choice when he went there, particularly remembering how last minute that whole thing was. I don't think there are many drivers who would do a demonstrably better job. I think George is a good bet for the team personally. He's clearly quick enough and can handle the car, and while he might not challenge Lewis in consistency over a season, by the time he's consistent enough for that Lewis will probably have moved on.

Ricciardo, I think, would have the pace and motivation. I don't know how he and Lewis would get on as team mates though. Daniel would undoubtedly be looking at it as an opportunity to take a title and I'd think would be as motivated every season as Nico was in his last. Also, he's expensive. Would the price of Ricciardo eat up all the extra income from the constructors points? I don't know... .I don't even know for sure if they get paid for points. I think I read that once but.....

But yes you're right, it's quite difficult to think who from the current crop would get close enough to Lewis and not be a risk of breaking the team in half. If Lando's fast enough, I think he'd get on with Lewis but for me the jury is still out on his speed. I like the guy a lot, would love to see him do well, but last year I wasn't thinking of him as one of the fastest drivers on the grid, and only two races into this season, he's been looking good but I'll wait until the season is out and see how he stacks up. Le Clerc crashes too much, and would crash into Lewis too much if they were team mates. Max - not a chance. Guaranteed inter team meltdown. Perez, again, jury is out. Showing lots of potential mixed in with the disappointment at Red Bull, but also has a bit of a history of clashing with team mates - maybe that was Ocon's fault more.

Raikkonen wouldn't rock the boat but I wouldn't think he'd be any quicker than Bottas. And how many seasons has he got left in him anyway?

Tough call for sure.

Edited by kiseca on Wednesday 21st April 14:29

[Leithen]

I have a sneaking suspicion Schumacher will end up in a Mercedes within a few years.

[jm doc]

Mark-C said:

Gary C said:

VladD said:

Mark-C said:

It feels to me that the main thing GR needs to learn from this is a little bit of patience in a race situation.

I don't understand this at all. For GR it must have looked like one of the easiest overtakes he'll ever try to make. DRS open, massive overspeed over Bottas at the easiest place (if not the only place) on the circuit to overtake. If you're not going to try a pass there when you've got an easy opportunity then you probably should be looking at a different career. There were loads of similar passes during the race, GR just got squeezed a bit and unlucky on a wet bit of track.

Spot on.

It was wet and narrow there - I'm suggesting he should have waited for somewhere else wider and drier!

There was nowhere else.

ffs

[jm doc]

aston80 said:

Jasandjules said:

Not really. They both have issues warming the tyres as that is the nature of the car. That does not explain why Lewis was second and Bottas not third or even fourth..... If both cars were running say 9th and 10th then fair enough as well......

Lewis was second because even though he was 80s behind Verstappen, the restart rules gave him a free lap (removing 75 seconds from gap to Verstappen).

He then restarted immediately behind 8th, Perez and Raikonnen lost it and he simply overtook the remaining 4 drivers using DRS.

Comedy gold that keeps on giving.

[vaud]

Leithen said:

I have a sneaking suspicion Schumacher will end up in a Mercedes within a few years.

But isn't he a Ferrari junior? I can see him moving up to Alfa next year if he drives well at Haas.

I think being at Haas is the right move this year; minimizes expectation and gives him a year where no-one can expect points... as long as he is steady and has clean races (and out races his team mate) then a faster car might beckon...