Williams F1

[TheDeuce]

Lebo44 said:

janesmith1950 said:

Why not? That's what the evidence (race results) suggests.

Evidence show that there are still 16 races. Let's give him a chance to prove he is still worth something. Besides he still has valid contract and I doubt he will be replaced in 2019.

I agree not to judge too soon but...

If it were any other driver I feel they would be judged by now. Absolute certainty that he's slower than GR is impossible to ever get, no matter how many races he competes in, it's always technically possible that if he's slowest in the first 10 he could be fastest in the next 10 races.

I do think we've already seen enough to make a pretty fair conclusion though already though. It's not just five races either, it's 5 races + practice and quali isn't it? Except for incidents that have swung the result, but I don't think I've ever seen him being 'faster' in any session.

[Tyre Smoke]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Kimi Raikonnen is definitely NOT slower than George Russell.

[Mr_Thyroid]

Dr Jekyll said:

Has any F1 team in the past come last consecutively so many times?

Yes.

HRT - 9 races in 2012 (up to and including the Britich GP)

Forti were very slow in 1995. So slow in fact that in Argentina and San Marino they were still running but not classified (according to wiki).

In 94 Pacific either failed to qualify or double retired from every GP.

At least Williams are reliable. At least they seemed to be closer in Spain.

[TheDeuce]

Mr_Thyroid said:

Yes.

HRT - 9 races in 2012 (up to and including the Britich GP)

Forti were very slow in 1995. So slow in fact that in Argentina and San Marino they were still running but not classified (according to wiki).

In 94 Pacific either failed to qualify or double retired from every GP.

At least Williams are reliable. At least they seemed to be closer in Spain.

I genuinely expect Williams will easily exceed HRT in 2012. Also, I don't think HRT placed last/second from last 9 times consecutively? Too tired to dig into it but I think they were occasionally away from stone dead last.

I think the truth is, the Williams is 3-5 seconds off the pace at each race, because it's a budget race car. It exists to not exceed 107%, consistently. They must have known long before we did that it wasn't going to be competitive. As a result, it will be consistently not competitive - so I do expect it will set one of the longest last place runs we have seen by the end of the season. Specifically, RK might be in with a chance of setting a personally unwanted record in terms of absolute last place finishes. Not that he hasn't already won in the game of life purely by finding his way back into an F1 and all the effort that must have taken.

Anyway, Williams needed a car that could complete a season. They have that. In effect, their bills are paid for 2019 whilst they try and figure out what can be done to become vaguely competitive for the future.

[Tyre Smoke]

Are their bills paid though?

Parts supply seems to be an issue.

[Deesee]

Heres a graph from reddit..

https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/bonruo/...

RK v GR race pace



So 9 seconds pre SC, and 7 Post SC

[TheDeuce]

Tyre Smoke said:

Are their bills paid though?

Parts supply seems to be an issue.

We don't know, yet. Probably money is tight to the point that it's a significant part of the problem. However I also think the parts issues must be symptomatic of more than just cash flow.

But still, without a car money wouldn't be tight, it would evaporate altogether. I should have said they need a car to compete in order to continue at all. I accept even that amount of money is probably not quite enough given the size of the team.

[Lebo44]

Deesee said:

Heres a graph from reddit..

https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/bonruo/...

RK v GR race pace



So 9 seconds pre SC, and 7 Post SC

Thanks for sharing this

[ivanhoew]

Lebo44 said:

Deesee said:

Heres a graph from reddit..

https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/bonruo/...

RK v GR race pace



So 9 seconds pre SC, and 7 Post SC

Thanks for sharing this

both on the same tyres all race ?

[Deesee]

ivanhoew said:

Lebo44 said:

Deesee said:

Heres a graph from reddit..

https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/bonruo/...

RK v GR race pace



So 9 seconds pre SC, and 7 Post SC

Thanks for sharing this

both on the same tyres all race ?

Within a lap...

[Petrus1983]

Interesting -

[Car-Matt]

Petrus1983 said:

Interesting -

In what way?

We have NIL way of comparing those times with each other.

We cant infer anything about the relative pace of any of the cars/drivers

[Petrus1983]

Car-Matt said:

In what way?

We have NIL way of comparing those times with each other.

We cant infer anything about the relative pace of any of the cars/drivers

When I use to play around with racing some people couldn’t get to the right ‘zone’ - no matter what their background was. He obviously can - and can push the car well.

[Car-Matt]

Petrus1983 said:

When I use to play around with racing some people couldn’t get to the right ‘zone’ - no matter what their background was. He obviously can - and can push the car well.

No known baseline against the race drivers, so you're guessing. Sorry

[Mr_Thyroid]

TheDeuce said:

Also, I don't think HRT placed last/second from last 9 times consecutively?

In Australia they didn't qualify (can't remember if it's because they were too slow or didn't have the car ready).

In Monaco, Button retired but was classified 16th behind Karthikeyan.

In Valencia, Hamilton retired but was classified 19th behind Karthikeyan and de la Rosa.

In Canada they had a double retirement. Otherwise they finished last and 2nd last, or last with one car retired. (according to Wiki)

This year Williams have been classified ahead of other cars in two races.

Edited by Mr_Thyroid on Wednesday 15th May 16:56

Edited by Mr_Thyroid on Wednesday 15th May 18:29

[Petrus1983]

Car-Matt said:

No known baseline against the race drivers, so you're guessing. Sorry

Totally not disagreeing with you. I do wonder how much he’s paying for the test though.

[Lebo44]

Petrus1983 said:

Car-Matt said:

No known baseline against the race drivers, so you're guessing. Sorry

Totally not disagreeing with you. I do wonder how much he’s paying for the test though.

Something around 10mln euro afaik, similar amount Orlen paid for RK

[skwdenyer]

Car-Matt said:

Petrus1983 said:

Interesting -

In what way?

We have NIL way of comparing those times with each other.

We cant infer anything about the relative pace of any of the cars/drivers

According to their manufacturer, C5 is worth about 1.9 seconds around Barcelona than a C2. Which would make Latifi's laps internally consistent from one day to the next.

IF (big unsupportable assumption) all teams were running the same programme, AND the Pirelli-provided offsets are right, THEN we can infer that Latifi was in the mix on Day 2 - not last but still almost 3 seconds off of the fastest man of the day.

[TheDeuce]

skwdenyer said:

According to their manufacturer, C5 is worth about 1.9 seconds around Barcelona than a C2. Which would make Latifi's laps internally consistent from one day to the next.

IF (big unsupportable assumption) all teams were running the same programme, AND the Pirelli-provided offsets are right, THEN we can infer that Latifi was in the mix on Day 2 - not last but still almost 3 seconds off of the fastest man of the day.

3, maybe 4 seconds off. Hardly worth arguing about the odd second when already so much is based on assumption I suppose.

On that basis he's about the same as the two current Williams drivers on this track. I think it was 3 seconds for GR and about 4 for RK in quali. Give him the benefit of the doubt, say he's about as quick as GR perhaps.

The only problem is, we have learnt nothing. Both current drivers have said their is a point beyond which they cannot push the car without risking it becoming impossible and going off. That strongly suggests that the speed is in the end capped by the car, not the driver - whichever driver. All we really have here, is a third driver that has re-confirmed the car is an utter turd.

[skwdenyer]

TheDeuce said:

skwdenyer said:

According to their manufacturer, C5 is worth about 1.9 seconds around Barcelona than a C2. Which would make Latifi's laps internally consistent from one day to the next.

IF (big unsupportable assumption) all teams were running the same programme, AND the Pirelli-provided offsets are right, THEN we can infer that Latifi was in the mix on Day 2 - not last but still almost 3 seconds off of the fastest man of the day.

3, maybe 4 seconds off. Hardly worth arguing about the odd second when already so much is based on assumption I suppose.

On that basis he's about the same as the two current Williams drivers on this track. I think it was 3 seconds for GR and about 4 for RK in quali. Give him the benefit of the doubt, say he's about as quick as GR perhaps.

The only problem is, we have learnt nothing. Both current drivers have said their is a point beyond which they cannot push the car without risking it becoming impossible and going off. That strongly suggests that the speed is in the end capped by the car, not the driver - whichever driver. All we really have here, is a third driver that has re-confirmed the car is an utter turd.

Very much so; by looking at tyres and posting both days' times I just wanted to provide a little more context than provided by the earlier posting, which seemed to suggest that the new boy was the second coming.