****Japanese GP 2014****

[marshalla]

RYH64E said:

marshalla said:

HF - two cars, line astern, minimal gap between them. Yellows on a single sector which they are about to enter.

When do you apply the limiter ?

So give them a 5 or 10 second window to make the adjustment, easy enough to have a big light on the dashboard that starts flashing to signal a problem on the circuit and that the driver should begin to slow down, and a continuous light a set time later meaning that excess speed from this point on will mean a stop/go penalty.

No problem at all with that, my issue was with the suggestion that a limiter should be switched on without driver intervention. That would pretty much guarantee some horrible rear-end shunts.

[24lemons]

Scuffers said:

24lemons said:

Is it pathetic though? If another driver is injured like Massa for example, would that be acceptable?

what's pathetic is the fact this accident could have easily been avoid it if JB had respected the flags.

if it was too wet to race on Inters, why did Massa not stop for wets?

if he really did not want to be out there, pull in and stop, nobody is holding a gun to his head.

how hard do you want to make this?

As I said in my previous post, I don't necessarily think that this particular accident should be used as sole motivation to introduce canopies, there are already plenty of other examples of injuries and deaths that could have been reduced or avoided with the use of a canopy of some sort. That's a discussion for another day.

I also said that the cause of Bianchi's accident (the fact that he left the track under yellows) should be looked at as well as the resulting injuries he suffered. There may be ways of preventing both in the future.

I agree that the drivers have to shoulder the responsibility when it comes to the way in which they drive. Had JB been driving slower at the time then it is unlikely that he would have left the track in that way. I doubt that any of the other drivers would done things any differently to JB in the same circumstances, and that's perhaps what needs to be addressed in the aftermath of last weekend.

[HarryFlatters]

marshalla said:

No problem at all with that, my issue was with the suggestion that a limiter should be switched on without driver intervention. That would pretty much guarantee some horrible rear-end shunts.

And horrible lift-off oversteer. Imagine going around Blanchimont, on the limit in qualifying, then suddenly having a massive balance shift mid corner because the computer has cut your power to idle.

[London424]

Scuffers said:

this is pathetic...

closed canopy means we now have to sort out wipers and some kind of de-misting, then consider cockpit temperatures, (and maybe AC), etc etc..

at which point, we might just as well call it sportscar racing and use WEC cars...

FFS I despair at this stuff, it's pathetic.

Not to mention what happens in a fire...would Lewis have got out of the car as quickly when his caught fire earlier this year?

[Henry Fiddleton]

marshalla said:

Make your mind up.

Get your people right ;-)

Going back to the point, yes it would need work, but it could be made to work.

[marshalla]

Henry Fiddleton said:

Get your people right ;-)

Going back to the point, yes it would need work, but it could be made to work.

Apologies. Stupid post (on my part) removed.

[24lemons]

Gaz. said:

This doesn't happen in WEC with SL60's. They had cars going into a slow zone at Indianapolis from 220mph.

That seemed to work quite well in practice, I remember alot of discussion before Le Mans about what would happen when mixing different classes of cars with differing braking performances as well as pro drivers who might attack the speed limited zone in the same way they do in the pit lane vs 'gentlemen drivers' who may lift off sooner. It's definitely the best alternative to a safety car though.

[Scuffers]

London424 said:

Not to mention what happens in a fire...would Lewis have got out of the car as quickly when his caught fire earlier this year?

your not wrong...

this is a classic example of what can happen with canopies..



http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/pictures...

[shoestring7]

Scuffers said:

London424 said:

Not to mention what happens in a fire...would Lewis have got out of the car as quickly when his caught fire earlier this year?

your not wrong...

this is a classic example of what can happen with canopies..



http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/pictures...

I'm surprised there's no external canopy release on those things.

SS7

[Vaud]

HarryFlatters said:

marshalla said:

No problem at all with that, my issue was with the suggestion that a limiter should be switched on without driver intervention. That would pretty much guarantee some horrible rear-end shunts.

And horrible lift-off oversteer. Imagine going around Blanchimont, on the limit in qualifying, then suddenly having a massive balance shift mid corner because the computer has cut your power to idle.

Easily solvable. Bright 5 second warning light in the cockpit and automatic FIA broadcast to all drivers; then a reduction of power over 5 seconds, doesn't have to be abrupt.

[andygo]

That is a far better alternative to a safety car cocking races up IMHO.

[Jasandjules]

A cockpit, unless made with 20" thick steel, would make no difference to the outcome of the accident. There was a LOT of force there to dissipate.

[RYH64E]

Jasandjules said:

A cockpit, unless made with 20" thick steel, would make no difference to the outcome of the accident. There was a LOT of force there to dissipate.

In the case of Bianchi, it wasn't the impact that caused the damage rather the rapid deceleration causing the brain to move around inside his skull, a cockpit cover would have made absolutely no difference to him and it wouldn't have saved the marshalls had they been in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[SG167]

Canopies would work in some situations but not others, it is far from an ideal thing to have though.

With Bianchi, his head made contact with the Truck - that stopped his head, it was the immediate stopping caused by the impact that caused the injuries.

If we are to see a purely 100% safe yellow flag situation, the drivers need to have no control over "if" they slow down.

My Opinion, is that if there is a "waved" yellow flag situation then automatically the car is reduced to producing 100 Bhp or so, in a gradual reduction to ensure no issues mid corner.

[Hungrymc]

SG167 said:

Canopies would work in some situations but not others, it is far from an ideal thing to have though.

With Bianchi, his head made contact with the Truck - that stopped his head, it was the immediate stopping caused by the impact that caused the injuries.

Looking at the way the air box and roll hoop etc got wiped off as if they were made of paper, there is little chance any sort of canopy could have altered the forces which JB's helmet experienced. Possibly sharp, hard pieces of canopy material being driven into the helmet.

Racing is dangerous at anytime. 100 x more so when there is a recovery vehicle or marshals right in the spot that cars are likely to fly off the track. I'm in two minds if a rule change is needed or a reiteration about the obligation of the drivers to look after everyone's safety in these situations.

[swisstoni]

Agree with above. Canopy would have been wiped off - just more stuff to hit driver.

[Megaflow]

The last two posters have got it right. An enclosed canopy would do nothing to protect Jules, and considering they would have to then extract him around said canopy, has the potential to make the situation worse.

[RYH64E]

Megaflow said:

An enclosed canopy would do nothing to protect Jules,

Or the marshalls.

[andyps]

hora said:

So if that Tractor wasn't there Jules could be in some serious st right now wouldn't he? Very bad that hes injured but I think a full and proper investigation needs to be carried out with future penalties for ignoring etc double yellows.

I guess that is very speculative as we don't know what happened but the FIA certainly will have the telemetry and it could show that the double waved yellows were ignored. All the other cars had gone round since Sutil crashed so had Bianchi had that exact accident a few seconds earlier he would have missed the tractor and hit the barriers very hard, maybe involving a marshal or two and in that incidence the FIA would have been looking very closely at the telemetry.

[RobGT81]

doogz said:

Weren't there green flags waving at the time of his accident?

Green flags at the marshals post after the incident, which is standard stuff.