Sebastian Vettel
Discussion
thegreenhell said:
TheDeuce said:
It's certainly better in quite a few ways sell an unsustainable operation at a loss ahead of making staff cuts. The new owner can then be seen as the one playing the rescue role and be forgiven for making the required redundancies as they inherited the problems..
Better than Mercedes adding to their own redundancy toll in the eyes of the media. Sell/discount and sell/re-purpose the branding and sell a majority stake etc..
They have endless options. I doubt they're as interested in 'getting good value for money' as they are in best positioning themselves to get what they want from F1 in the future, and ditching what they don't want to deal with.
That is exactly what Honda did at the end of 2008. It was cheaper for them to pay Brawn to take it on than it was to close it down, and it saved face for them.Better than Mercedes adding to their own redundancy toll in the eyes of the media. Sell/discount and sell/re-purpose the branding and sell a majority stake etc..
They have endless options. I doubt they're as interested in 'getting good value for money' as they are in best positioning themselves to get what they want from F1 in the future, and ditching what they don't want to deal with.
Deesee said:
vaud said:
Looks like Renault are for sale:
-Renault announcing a huge savings plan
-Closing down 4 factories in France
-4000 layoffs
-They have asked the government for a 5 billion Euro bailout
Some comments on Missed Apex (no source) that the team is for sale, providing they keep Renault engines.
Can't see the increasing F1 investment...
Sounds like the F1 team need a well funded billionaire with his own super yacht (& models), with perhaps a driver on retainer.. hmmm?-Renault announcing a huge savings plan
-Closing down 4 factories in France
-4000 layoffs
-They have asked the government for a 5 billion Euro bailout
Some comments on Missed Apex (no source) that the team is for sale, providing they keep Renault engines.
Can't see the increasing F1 investment...
Perhaps someone who has purchased the Renault engine business previously?
janesmith1950 said:
jsf said:
No, Stroll has heavily invested in AM.
That's my point. If you're Stroll and you want AM to be in F1, and you have have an opportunity to take over either the current Merc team or the RP one, which would you take?
(RP)
Muzzer79 said:
janesmith1950 said:
jsf said:
No, Stroll has heavily invested in AM.
That's my point. If you're Stroll and you want AM to be in F1, and you have have an opportunity to take over either the current Merc team or the RP one, which would you take?
(RP)
Mercedes and RP are already effectively team A & team B...
AM need further investment and Mercedes need to clear their tradition ICE power trains out of their car range to balance their average emissions to avoid EU fines..
Lots of pieces floating around that could fit together in a very different way. A way that allows Mercedes to exit F1 yet continue to benefit from it. And truly renew AM, for everyone's interest at the same time. All powered by Mercedes but with no ongoing Mercedes investment or direct participation in F1 to conflict with their commitment to EV's.
All speculation of course. And all just sperate factors - I'm not proposing a final way it could all resolve itself. I bet the key players think of little else however.
Muzzer79 said:
Er, the one you already own and have invested in for months?
(RP)
Idle speculation, however if you owned RP and you could get Mercedes F1 at low or no cost, and you were a billionaire with a son who desperately wants a competitive car and a luxury car brand needing a halo sport attachment, would you pass up the opportunity of owning the best team on the grid and keep trying to build RP from scratch?(RP)
All any of us can do is speculate - which is fine, what the hell else would we hang around an F1 forum to do??
What is fact however is that there is a lot of accumulated value in Merc F1 and its valuable only to someone who knows how to apply it, and wants to remain in F1. If Mercedes no longer do, those that do wish to remain will most certainly be making plans as how to make use of that value.
I doubt whatever unfolds will be direct or simple, and I suspect strongly it will be chiefly orchestrated by Toto and Stroll.
What is fact however is that there is a lot of accumulated value in Merc F1 and its valuable only to someone who knows how to apply it, and wants to remain in F1. If Mercedes no longer do, those that do wish to remain will most certainly be making plans as how to make use of that value.
I doubt whatever unfolds will be direct or simple, and I suspect strongly it will be chiefly orchestrated by Toto and Stroll.
jsf said:
CoolHands said:
Well I’m confused so what we saying, VET to racing point rebranded as Aston Martin?
Nope. 
As such, all topics seem to wandering a little. At least we're all finding something to bang on about though
TheDeuce you realise you are agreeing with a LucyP prediction here?
It doesn’t fit neatly for me. Daimler execs would be walking away from a real opportunity to break all records before them. They aren’t going to give it up for charity.
Stroll’s existing Aston Martin investment quickly went backwards and the short to medium term outlook is not positive. It’d be a very high stakes move to leverage himself further. I don’t think you become Lawrence Stroll by taking on risk on that scale.
Spin off Racing Point? Where is the taker for that team, and where is the benefit in consolidating with impending budget cap.
Sure Stroll might become financially involved in Mercedes, Wolff could make one of any number of moves, Mercedes and Racing Point could become even more collaborative (two teams = two development budgets). However I don’t see the Mercedes ‘Aston Martin’ rebrand. I suspect that the factories at Brackley and Silverstone will continue to run a team each.
It doesn’t fit neatly for me. Daimler execs would be walking away from a real opportunity to break all records before them. They aren’t going to give it up for charity.
Stroll’s existing Aston Martin investment quickly went backwards and the short to medium term outlook is not positive. It’d be a very high stakes move to leverage himself further. I don’t think you become Lawrence Stroll by taking on risk on that scale.
Spin off Racing Point? Where is the taker for that team, and where is the benefit in consolidating with impending budget cap.
Sure Stroll might become financially involved in Mercedes, Wolff could make one of any number of moves, Mercedes and Racing Point could become even more collaborative (two teams = two development budgets). However I don’t see the Mercedes ‘Aston Martin’ rebrand. I suspect that the factories at Brackley and Silverstone will continue to run a team each.
I keep saying it but no one listens-Toto’s goal this season was financial independence from the parent company, to be “self sufficient” and from all reports preseason he was on course to achieve that.
It’s not unrealistic to think that although those plans may be scuppered in the short term it’s not impossible to recover. Not racing at the moment is not costing the big teams anything, they’ve already covered the costs.
The F1 team is no longer a financial noose around Mercedes’ neck.
It’s not unrealistic to think that although those plans may be scuppered in the short term it’s not impossible to recover. Not racing at the moment is not costing the big teams anything, they’ve already covered the costs.
The F1 team is no longer a financial noose around Mercedes’ neck.
LaurasOtherHalf said:
I keep saying it but no one listens-Toto’s goal this season was financial independence from the parent company, to be “self sufficient” and from all reports preseason he was on course to achieve that.
It’s not unrealistic to think that although those plans may be scuppered in the short term it’s not impossible to recover. Not racing at the moment is not costing the big teams anything, they’ve already covered the costs.
The F1 team is no longer a financial noose around Mercedes’ neck.
Your not get the reply’s because you right, you remember how it works round here eh! It’s not unrealistic to think that although those plans may be scuppered in the short term it’s not impossible to recover. Not racing at the moment is not costing the big teams anything, they’ve already covered the costs.
The F1 team is no longer a financial noose around Mercedes’ neck.
Toto has done a few interviews expressing this, they estimate that the marketing value in 2010 for the team was worth 85m, now it’s in the billions.. Daimler are practically getting a free ride.
They have secured a large petro chemical sponsor, nicked on of Ferrari’s long-standing sponsors, there’s big value in sponsoring the car that’s on the front of the grid, Merc F1 are now realising that.
HustleRussell said:
TheDeuce you realise you are agreeing with a LucyP prediction here?
It doesn’t fit neatly for me. Daimler execs would be walking away from a real opportunity to break all records before them. They aren’t going to give it up for charity.
Stroll’s existing Aston Martin investment quickly went backwards and the short to medium term outlook is not positive. It’d be a very high stakes move to leverage himself further. I don’t think you become Lawrence Stroll by taking on risk on that scale.
Spin off Racing Point? Where is the taker for that team, and where is the benefit in consolidating with impending budget cap.
Sure Stroll might become financially involved in Mercedes, Wolff could make one of any number of moves, Mercedes and Racing Point could become even more collaborative (two teams = two development budgets). However I don’t see the Mercedes ‘Aston Martin’ rebrand. I suspect that the factories at Brackley and Silverstone will continue to run a team each.
I'm not agreeing with Lucy, I haven't made any predictions as such.It doesn’t fit neatly for me. Daimler execs would be walking away from a real opportunity to break all records before them. They aren’t going to give it up for charity.
Stroll’s existing Aston Martin investment quickly went backwards and the short to medium term outlook is not positive. It’d be a very high stakes move to leverage himself further. I don’t think you become Lawrence Stroll by taking on risk on that scale.
Spin off Racing Point? Where is the taker for that team, and where is the benefit in consolidating with impending budget cap.
Sure Stroll might become financially involved in Mercedes, Wolff could make one of any number of moves, Mercedes and Racing Point could become even more collaborative (two teams = two development budgets). However I don’t see the Mercedes ‘Aston Martin’ rebrand. I suspect that the factories at Brackley and Silverstone will continue to run a team each.
I'm just looking at the various factors and the existing connections between them, and maybe how they could connect in the future, in a different way.
That's not to say anything needs to happen anytime soon. I agree Mercedes board must want to beat the records ahead of a potential exit. When they do depart, I'm not suggesting they would make the team affordable to Toto out of charity either.
Deesee said:
Your not get the reply’s because you right, you remember how it works round here eh!
Toto has done a few interviews expressing this, they estimate that the marketing value in 2010 for the team was worth 85m, now it’s in the billions.. Daimler are practically getting a free ride.
They have secured a large petro chemical sponsor, nicked on of Ferrari’s long-standing sponsors, there’s big value in sponsoring the car that’s on the front of the grid, Merc F1 are now realising that.
It’s not impossible to consider that with Renault getting its €5bn bail out it’ll carry on regardless as well, in fact you could argue the budget will be there to throw more at it.Toto has done a few interviews expressing this, they estimate that the marketing value in 2010 for the team was worth 85m, now it’s in the billions.. Daimler are practically getting a free ride.
They have secured a large petro chemical sponsor, nicked on of Ferrari’s long-standing sponsors, there’s big value in sponsoring the car that’s on the front of the grid, Merc F1 are now realising that.
Renault, the car company will not fail, too much gov backing. If Covid carries on to be big enough to crush them and Mercedes we’ve all got much more to worry about than F1.
The question has to be whether Renault say “enough’s enough, let’s throw everything at it and finally win the damn thing”.
LaurasOtherHalf said:
I keep saying it but no one listens-Toto’s goal this season was financial independence from the parent company, to be “self sufficient” and from all reports preseason he was on course to achieve that.
It’s not unrealistic to think that although those plans may be scuppered in the short term it’s not impossible to recover. Not racing at the moment is not costing the big teams anything, they’ve already covered the costs.
The F1 team is no longer a financial noose around Mercedes’ neck.
I agree that for Mercedes the F1 team hasn't cost them anything in real terms for decades, and I've no problem believing that the in direct terms the team can self fund entirely at this stage - or as you say, if CV hadn't upset things perhaps.It’s not unrealistic to think that although those plans may be scuppered in the short term it’s not impossible to recover. Not racing at the moment is not costing the big teams anything, they’ve already covered the costs.
The F1 team is no longer a financial noose around Mercedes’ neck.
That self sufficiency surely relies upon some hefty sponsorship payments each year?
Why would those sponsors pay in full for a season with little or no exposure? Not racing must be costing them a fortune if they're losing expected sponsor payments as a result..
LaurasOtherHalf said:
The question has to be whether Renault say “enough’s enough, let’s throw everything at it and finally win the damn thing”.
It takes more than a big budget - Ferrari have proven that. Also with the cost cap levelling the field to some degree I’d imagine the current Renault F1 structure is one of the less likely victors from all this. jsf said:
It cost Daimler £40 million in 2018, the F1 team spent £320 million and made £13 million profit.
It's peanuts out of their marketing budget, Daimler wont relinquish control of that IP and marketing asset, it's too valuable.
Assuming it does have financial self sufficience (which contradicts your earlier point about non manufacturers being able to afford the Merc F1 team, btw), it still depends on F1 fitting Mercedes' immediate and long term strategy for the brand. It's peanuts out of their marketing budget, Daimler wont relinquish control of that IP and marketing asset, it's too valuable.
If it's forced into large scale redundancies, an F1 programme can look profligate. If the brand movement is towards electric and F1 isn't, the marketing message from F1 activities can confuse and dilute the overall picture.
jsf said:
It's peanuts out of their marketing budget, Daimler wont relinquish control of that IP and marketing asset, it's too valuable.
As LOH says and I agree, in a 'normal' year it probably costs Daimler not even peanuts at this point.But a question of brand suitability and image also has to enter the equation at some point. There are moves Daimler could make to see that the team is repurposed and still works in their favour.
Let's see if AM's current financial woes makes them something of a bargain for Daimler to invest in more heavily. They already own 5% but that small % isn't the whole story - it's tied in to their supply of powertrains and tech to AM, and as such they can block AM from accepting investment from anyone they don't wish to be involved. Naturally that means Daimler effectively approved the Stroll led consortium investment. Then Toto followed through the same door to a lesser degree.
I think there's more at play here than just the relatively modest sums that stroll put in (big money but not enough to both make the brand solvent again and also reinvigorate it) and the subsequent re-branding of racing point.
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