Honda - another disaster ?

[anonymous-user]

rubystone said:

They managed to attract Prodromou. Although this year's car will tell us just what impact he has had and whether he really was a contributor to RBR's success.

Didn't they attract him some time before it was obvious the Honda partnership was a dud? Before Ron was cast out? Before it has become blindingly obvious they can't attract the level of sponsorship they need to find, if they want to keep their current overhead without a benefactor such as Honda?

Feel awful saying it, as a long time fan of the team, btw.

[Oi_Oi_Savaloy]

I think part of the problem is that Honda's engine facility is in Japan. To my mind that means delay and distance. Delay - because of everything has to go back to Japan and distance - you simply can't work as closely together (with the chassis/rest of the teams) when you're thousands of miles away. There's only so much you can do on a video conference- it's just not the same. I'd also argue that the talent is in the UK/Europe for F1, not Japan. Perhaps the team isn't as strong as it could be (also think alot of the team are from motoGP?).

[Vaud]

Oi_Oi_Savaloy said:

I think part of the problem is that Honda's engine facility is in Japan. To my mind that means delay and distance. Delay - because of everything has to go back to Japan and distance - you simply can't work as closely together (with the chassis/rest of the teams) when you're thousands of miles away. There's only so much you can do on a video conference- it's just not the same. I'd also argue that the talent is in the UK/Europe for F1, not Japan. Perhaps the team isn't as strong as it could be (also think alot of the team are from motoGP?).

They have by all accounts awesome facilities.

I think its more that this is in reality a new engine and they are now 7 years (?) behind.

[Oi_Oi_Savaloy]

Vaud said:

Oi_Oi_Savaloy said:

I think part of the problem is that Honda's engine facility is in Japan. To my mind that means delay and distance. Delay - because of everything has to go back to Japan and distance - you simply can't work as closely together (with the chassis/rest of the teams) when you're thousands of miles away. There's only so much you can do on a video conference- it's just not the same. I'd also argue that the talent is in the UK/Europe for F1, not Japan. Perhaps the team isn't as strong as it could be (also think alot of the team are from motoGP?).

They have by all accounts awesome facilities.

I think its more that this is in reality a new engine and they are now 7 years (?) behind.

I don't doubt it Vaud. more telling is your 7 year lag actually.

[red_slr]

Personally I have my doubts Honda will last another season. Its a disaster again and someone at McLaren will have to pull the plug sooner or later.

If they had started their own engine development in parallel 1-2 years ago I reckon they would be in a better situation than where they are now.

The road cars are all well and good but if you cant get into the top 10 its not really cricket is it!

[Vaud]

red_slr said:

Personally I have my doubts Honda will last another season. Its a disaster again and someone at McLaren will have to pull the plug sooner or later.

If they had started their own engine development in parallel 1-2 years ago I reckon they would be in a better situation than where they are now.

The road cars are all well and good but if you cant get into the top 10 its not really cricket is it!

What are their options? McLaren don't have 300M+ to build their own engine (or as you say, the time)

[CraigyMc]

Vaud said:

red_slr said:

Personally I have my doubts Honda will last another season. Its a disaster again and someone at McLaren will have to pull the plug sooner or later.

If they had started their own engine development in parallel 1-2 years ago I reckon they would be in a better situation than where they are now.

The road cars are all well and good but if you cant get into the top 10 its not really cricket is it!

What are their options? McLaren don't have 300M+ to build their own engine (or as you say, the time)

If the rumours are true, it'd cost a lot more than that.
If Honda are sponsoring McLaren to the tune of $100m/season and paying for Alonso, they are chucking about $130m into the pot before even considering an engine program.

It'd be lovely to know the real numbers, because I can't see Honda putting $200m/pa into this, but that's what it'd come out like.

[rallycross]

The most recent comments (manipulated) on Autosport do not read well based on having to use Friday sessions for testing - what a shambles...

"some Fridays early in the season will be used as test sessions for what we should have done here"


"It's not great, not at all at the level of what we wanted to show," Boullier told Autosport.

"We didn't run much, we didn't run enough, and we don't necessarily perform when we do run.

"But we still covered a few miles, we started working around the car and understanding how it works."

"There is no solution to make up the time we lost," he said.

"Now, we need to get to the point and reprioritise the list of what we need to know.

"Then, unfortunately, some Fridays early in the season will be used as test sessions for what we should have done here.

"Nothing can be made up, you can't make up time. When time's lost, it's lost."

[aeropilot]

red_slr said:

Personally I have my doubts Honda will last another season. Its a disaster again and someone at McLaren will have to pull the plug sooner or later.

If they had started their own engine development in parallel 1-2 years ago I reckon they would be in a better situation than where they are now.

I don't reckon it would have made any difference.

I do wonder how long it will be before than quit.....again.

End of next season will be almost half way through the 10 year contract.....and if they are still in a poor situation by summer break next year, then I think they'll walk at end of next season.

[eliot]

Is the problem that the Japanese are too honorable to explore the limits of the engine rules - or what a layman might call cheating or pushing the 'spirit' of the rules?

[Vaud]

eliot said:

Is the problem that the Japanese are too honorable to explore the limits of the engine rules - or what a layman might call cheating or pushing the 'spirit' of the rules?

The tokens system has gone, so at least they can roll out changes more quickly.

[AMD87]

eliot said:

Is the problem that the Japanese are too honorable to explore the limits of the engine rules - or what a layman might call cheating or pushing the 'spirit' of the rules?

Doubt it look at Toyota in wrc.

[aeropilot]

AMD87 said:

eliot said:

Is the problem that the Japanese are too honorable to explore the limits of the engine rules - or what a layman might call cheating or pushing the 'spirit' of the rules?

Doubt it look at Toyota in wrc.

Yes, but they're doing that similar to the old TTE way not the way Honda are trying do F1..... again.

[patmahe]

The implosion continues: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/128383...

Stories like that don't fill me with confidence. How can a company like Honda be getting it this wrong for this long? I actually fear for McLarens survival in F1 if they stick with Honda, really hope they show some promise this week.

[aeropilot]

patmahe said:

The implosion continues: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/128383...

Stories like that don't fill me with confidence. How can a company like Honda be getting it this wrong for this long?

They are getting it wrong because they insist on doing it the Japanese corporate manufacturer way, not the racing team way, which is why it is even more surprising that they are parting company with Simon, as it would appear they are retreating further into their corporate system to find an answer which would seem even less likely to produce results IMHO.
Maybe my thoughts of it lasting until end of next season is even more optimistic than I thought!!

[rev-erend]

If this year is another disaster, I cant see McLaren or Honda wanting to remain partners despite a 10 year contract.

[red_slr]

Vaud said:

What are their options? McLaren don't have 300M+ to build their own engine (or as you say, the time)

Mercedes. That or hope someone new comes into the market who can grab up teams like Haas, Force India and Williams.

Not likely though.

[dmitry]

red_slr said:

Mercedes. That or hope someone new comes into the market who can grab up teams like Haas, Force India and Williams.

Not likely though.

Would Mercedes want to associate with them though? Then again, they could rebrand the engines under a watchmaker name, that'd be original. McLaren Swatch anyone?

[anonymous-user]

aeropilot said:

They are getting it wrong because they insist on doing it the Japanese corporate manufacturer way, not the racing team way, which is why it is even more surprising that they are parting company with Simon, as it would appear they are retreating further into their corporate system to find an answer which would seem even less likely to produce results IMHO.
Maybe my thoughts of it lasting until end of next season is even more optimistic than I thought!!

Not sure a corporate culture is something to blame; Renault and Mercedes are not in the habit of just throwing money into a pit without full corporate accountability. I've worked for large Japanese corporate manufacturers, and I'm not convinced the 'Japanese way' makes the difference, either (the Japanese have been successful in top level motorsport before against others, and still are).

I suspect Honda now has become such a diverse organisation, compared to where it was in the 1980s and 90s, that there isn't the strength in depth within to sufficiently focus on the F1 project in the way it might have done back then. Honda have been cautious around F1 for a number of years, and the board always took some persuading to allocate resource to it. There's nothing in their behaviour this time around to suggest it's any different now.

[Vaud]

janesmith1950 said:

Honda have been cautious around F1 for a number of years, and the board always took some persuading to allocate resource to it. There's nothing in their behaviour this time around to suggest it's any different now.

Cautious? They went with a highly radical engine design... It didn't work, but you can't call it cautious...