New engine regs for 2021

[Kraken]

Daft thing is that the MGU-H has massive potential for road use and they're always banging on about F1 has to be road relevant but it's quite likely that's the part they'll drop.

[rev-erend]

We should know the 2021 regs by the end of this week but I doubt it will be great for motorsports fans but I will keep an open mind.

[Megaflow]

Kraken said:

Daft thing is that the MGU-H has massive potential for road use and they're always banging on about F1 has to be road relevant but it's quite likely that's the part they'll drop.

I suspect if has got very limited use for road cars. The problems with developing a motor that runs at 125k plus rpm, at temperatures like that near a turbo charger are significant. Then to make it durable and reliable enough ramp that up some more. But the real killer is to make it work, durably and reliably at a cost that is actually beneficial to the end user is reduced fuel consumption, is almost impossible.

It might be useful in a many years time, if oil gets really expensive if it starts to run out. But by then BEV’s will dominate and it will be consider old hat.

[Kraken]

It doesn't have to be at the extremes of the F1 engine. There have been several articles in the specialist trade press recently, especially from Mercedes engineers, pointing out all the benefits of the technology to road cars.

[MartG]

F1 teams apparently resisting another Liberty alteration...

https://thesportsrush.com/f1-teams-oppose-the-ban-...

[Megaflow]

Kraken said:

It doesn't have to be at the extremes of the F1 engine. There have been several articles in the specialist trade press recently, especially from Mercedes engineers, pointing out all the benefits of the technology to road cars.

As I understand it, one of the biggest issues with MGU-K development is the speed the electric machine runs at, in this regard an F1 engine is not as extreme as many pass car engines, because they are limited to 125,000 rpm. Pass car engines with smaller turbos will be running faster than that, making development harder. Yes the duty cycle is less, but the life expectancy is a lot higher.

You could decouple the motor from the turbo by the use of a gearbox, that adds more cost and reduces efficiency.

[anonymous-user]

Megaflow said:

As I understand it, one of the biggest issues with MGU-K development is the speed the electric machine runs at, in this regard an F1 engine is not as extreme as many pass car engines, because they are limited to 125,000 rpm. Pass car engines with smaller turbos will be running faster than that, making development harder. Yes the duty cycle is less, but the life expectancy is a lot higher.

You could decouple the motor from the turbo by the use of a gearbox, that adds more cost and reduces efficiency.

Road turbos dont flow anything like the air an F1 turbo does, or run anything like as much compression, they also have much smaller compressor wheels, so lag is not an issue and turbine electric driving is far less of a benefit.

[rdjohn]

Megaflow said:

I suspect if has got very limited use for road cars. The problems with developing a motor that runs at 125k plus rpm, at temperatures like that near a turbo charger are significant. Then to make it durable and reliable enough ramp that up some more. But the real killer is to make it work, durably and reliably at a cost that is actually beneficial to the end user is reduced fuel consumption, is almost impossible.

It might be useful in a many years time, if oil gets really expensive if it starts to run out. But by then BEV’s will dominate and it will be consider old hat.

If it was ever going to happen, we would have seen something by now. A truck charging it's battery for KERS assistance up hill, or a small car with its turbo kept spinning off load.

It was a great idea, but will get consigned to history as a gap between what is desirable and what is doable, at an affordable cost.

[coppice]

Kraken said:

It doesn't have to be at the extremes of the F1 engine. There have been several articles in the specialist trade press recently, especially from Mercedes engineers, pointing out all the benefits of the technology to road cars.

My inner Mandy Rice Davies compels me to say '- well they would say that wouldn't they? ' .

F1 hasn't had and has no need to have any real relevance for road cars . Its biggest legacies are -

- faux raised nose look (aping '89 Tyrrell and everything that follows )
- faux diffusers (following the ground effect revolution from the Lotus 78 in '77 )
- flappy paddles(pioneered by John Barnard's '89 Ferrari 640 )
- shift lights(ditto )
- multi function steering wheels (not sure exactly when - guess early 90s ? )


Not much is it ?

[Gad-Westy]

coppice said:

Kraken said:

It doesn't have to be at the extremes of the F1 engine. There have been several articles in the specialist trade press recently, especially from Mercedes engineers, pointing out all the benefits of the technology to road cars.

My inner Mandy Rice Davies compels me to say '- well they would say that wouldn't they? ' .

F1 hasn't had and has no need to have any real relevance for road cars . Its biggest legacies are -

- faux raised nose look (aping '89 Tyrrell and everything that follows )
- faux diffusers (following the ground effect revolution from the Lotus 78 in '77 )
- flappy paddles(pioneered by John Barnard's '89 Ferrari 640 )
- shift lights(ditto )
- multi function steering wheels (not sure exactly when - guess early 90s ? )


Not much is it ?

I wondered about composite brakes and traction control. And of course some cars now boast 'DRS'. Not that much of it seems relevant to the masses but I wonder how much devil in the detail there is with material usage/dev, tyre technology, lubricant formulae etc. Perhaps not a great deal actually, F1 tends to play at the more exotic end of the engineering spectrum.

[hairyben]

coppice said:

My inner Mandy Rice Davies compels me to say '- well they would say that wouldn't they? ' .

F1 hasn't had and has no need to have any real relevance for road cars . Its biggest legacies are -

- faux raised nose look (aping '89 Tyrrell and everything that follows )
- faux diffusers (following the ground effect revolution from the Lotus 78 in '77 )
- flappy paddles(pioneered by John Barnard's '89 Ferrari 640 )
- shift lights(ditto )
- multi function steering wheels (not sure exactly when - guess early 90s ? )


Not much is it ?

I'm sure tyres more than that, off the top of my head active suspension and traction control are two that even if the basic concept was around before were developed and refined and popularised by f1 teams. There must be a lot of pioneering work, e.g. Carbon fiber production and aerodynamic reasearch, where what trickles down is the education and understanding to tackle other projects, the transfer might be unrecognizable to an everyman observer.

[StevieBee]

hairyben said:

coppice said:

My inner Mandy Rice Davies compels me to say '- well they would say that wouldn't they? ' .

F1 hasn't had and has no need to have any real relevance for road cars . Its biggest legacies are -

- faux raised nose look (aping '89 Tyrrell and everything that follows )
- faux diffusers (following the ground effect revolution from the Lotus 78 in '77 )
- flappy paddles(pioneered by John Barnard's '89 Ferrari 640 )
- shift lights(ditto )
- multi function steering wheels (not sure exactly when - guess early 90s ? )

Not much is it ?

I'm sure tyres more than that, off the top of my head active suspension and traction control are two that even if the basic concept was around before were developed and refined and popularised by f1 teams. There must be a lot of pioneering work, e.g. Carbon fiber production and aerodynamic reasearch, where what trickles down is the education and understanding to tackle other projects, the transfer might be unrecognizable to an everyman observer.

Several books have highlighted the cross-over to road cars from F1 and motor sport in general and there is a lot more beyond the tangible items listed above. Integrated design approaches, materials, test processes, manufacturing techniques and so on all have all improved as a result of them emerging from F1 and sports car racing (and to a degree, rallying).

There's also the beneficial impact on non-motoring stuff. Sid Watkins and another surgeon from the London Hospital pioneered new methods of operating on high-risk patients in operating theatres, that was based upon how a F1 pit stop works (except those performed by Hass :-)

There was a exhibition at the science museum a few years back that showed the plethora of things that have benefited from development in F1 from aerospace to domestic appliances. It's impact spreads way beyond flappy paddles and shift lights!

Looking at these things, the benefits of development emerged organically - in that F1 was doing what it was doing and just so happened that some of what it did resonated to other endeavours. I think that one of the problems it faces - or one off the root causes - is that because of these beneficial effects, the sport has become shaped into an R&D exercise first, a sport second.

[rev-erend]

What about:

DSG gearboxes
Push button start
Brakes : Discs then ceramic discs, multi pot calipers (4, 6 etc..)
Double overhead camshafts
Aero (spoilers, front air dams)
Aluminium (and some top end cars Carbonfibre)
Safety

[robinessex]

rev-erend said:

What about:

DSG gearboxes
Push button start
Brakes : Discs then ceramic discs, multi pot calipers (4, 6 etc..)
Double overhead camshafts
Aero (spoilers, front air dams)
Aluminium (and some top end cars Carbonfibre)
Safety

Disc brakes and anti-locking came from aircraft. So did OHC engines, aero, aluminium and carbon. Don't think Jumbo jets have flappy paddle gearboxes though !!!

[rev-erend]

robinessex said:

rev-erend said:

What about:

DSG gearboxes
Push button start
Brakes : Discs then ceramic discs, multi pot calipers (4, 6 etc..)
Double overhead camshafts
Aero (spoilers, front air dams)
Aluminium (and some top end cars Carbonfibre)
Safety

Disc brakes and anti-locking came from aircraft. So did OHC engines, aero, aluminium and carbon. Don't think Jumbo jets have flappy paddle gearboxes though !!!

While that is true, its racing that bought the idea to the car world.

The racing world also gave us homologation specials.

Crazy race cars on the road.

[Gad-Westy]

rev-erend said:

robinessex said:

rev-erend said:

What about:

DSG gearboxes
Push button start
Brakes : Discs then ceramic discs, multi pot calipers (4, 6 etc..)
Double overhead camshafts
Aero (spoilers, front air dams)
Aluminium (and some top end cars Carbonfibre)
Safety

Disc brakes and anti-locking came from aircraft. So did OHC engines, aero, aluminium and carbon. Don't think Jumbo jets have flappy paddle gearboxes though !!!

While that is true, its racing that bought the idea to the car world.

The racing world also gave us homologation specials.

Crazy race cars on the road.

Have F1 or other racing cars ever used DSG? I got the impression the dual clutch was deveopped to smooth out the gear changes at the cost of increased weight. Would assume racing cars would always use a single clutch.

Push button starting sounds a little tenuous too. I would have said an ignition key was more advanced than a button. Not that F1 cars use either.

[coppice]

rev-erend said:

What about:

DSG gearboxes
Push button start
Brakes : Discs then ceramic discs, multi pot calipers (4, 6 etc..)
Double overhead camshafts
Aero (spoilers, front air dams)
Aluminium (and some top end cars Carbonfibre)
Safety

DSG - sports cars- Porsche 956 , 80s

Push button starts? Crikey , not the great leap forward is it? Most pre 60s cars had buttons

Disc Brakes-invented 1902 , pioneered by C Type Jaguar ; ceramics- remind me how relevant they are to 99% or cars again ?

DOHC - yup - 1906 Peugeot GP car- 40 years before F1 per se

Aero- come on , man , sports cars again; Richie Ginther was one of pioneers , on early 60s Ferrari . See also 60s Chaparral Can Am/ Sports Cars - F1 was years behind.

Ally - first used in 1899 Carbon ? Yup - pioneered by McLaren in 81 - just the five years after I bought my first carbon fly fishing rod then . And a material totally irrelevant to 99% of road cars

Safety - F1 invented it ? Who knew ? That well known F1 team , Saab were fitting belts as standard years before F1 cars used them universally .

Of course there is spin off , but the biggest spin is the one F1 puts on its own importance . It's an end in itself , and a fascinating one but it is not and never has been some sort of testbed for oen's next shopping car.

[Gad-Westy]

coppice said:

DSG - sports cars- Porsche 956 , 80s

Never knew that. Interesting.

[thegreenhell]

F1 has never used ceramic brakes. The carbon/carbon brakes used in F1 came from aircraft landing gear, and have never been used on road cars.

[MartG]

StevieBee said:

There's also the beneficial impact on non-motoring stuff. Sid Watkins and another surgeon from the London Hospital pioneered new methods of operating on high-risk patients in operating theatres, that was based upon how a F1 pit stop works (except those performed by Hass :-)

Mental image of someone emerging from an operating theatre and one of his legs suddenly falls off