McLaren

[tigerkoi]

DanielSan said:

isaldiri said:

Remains to be seen if ZB is a good egg imo. He was brought in initially primarily to bring in a major sponsor to Mclaren and hasn't exactly been successful at that. His main achievements/background have been in marketing not managing a large race team attempting to be competing at the sharp end of the grid. Nothing suggests that he's up to that job even if Mclaren are as you have also pointed out in greater trouble than merely the chap in charge.

Nope, no experience of running a team that can regularly win races...

https://www.unitedautosports.com/about-us/team

Apart from that one anyway.

I think most people would agree that starting something yourself with a singular goal is leagues apart in difference as a challenge when faced with say, a company that is significantly bigger, has a far more complex and multi-threaded ownership structure, has been culturally stamped by the vision of mainly one dogmatic and focussed man, isn’t currently at the sharp end, and there are questions if everyone is indeed pulling in the same way! It must be like going from starting up your own window cleaning business to being asked to be like the #3 at Beazer Homes

But it’s fair to point out the guy isn’t fresh off the boat and has experience of being in the hot seat in a previous life. But business building and saving a complex and legacy company from the fire are of course different skills. Can one person exhibit both? Not often. Usually and by necessity it’s a case of different leaders needed for differing times.

I remain to be convinced by Brown too, but Dr Z’s earlier explanatory note I think was fair and sometimes people need just a little bit more time to be judged - I can only imagine the internal politics and corporate friction at a place like McLaren are upscale by now and as much as some think a dictator is required to lead them through the parting sea, you might also need to convince the differing shareholders that’s the right way too.

[rallycross]

Sad to see the team resorting to stuff like this, fire the race director, silly statements from ZB, car running around the back of the mid pack - I’d love to see them back on form but looks unlikely soon.

[rubystone]

tigerkoi said:

What makes you think Brown is any good or worth persevering with in his current position? Genuinely curious and not being combative.

Maybe uncharitably but he doesn’t come across as a particularly effective guy for this challenge. I’m not sure I agree on his position and capability being at the mercy of technical guys beneath him - it’s not an argument that washes at any mid-large size organisation. Companies may be stacked with people with soft and technical skills across the spectrum and and a C-suite guy won’t be expected to know them all, but when it comes to grasping what’s going on - what’s materially important to the running and performance of the firm, if you’re not on it, you’re out.

I know a FTSE CEO who got the can for less woolly answers than Brown trots out :|

Brown strikes me as a guy who’s good in his niche and probably a fair networker - all the skills that mean he should have ended up more as a sidekick for Bratches at Liberty. Canapés and schmoozing with the latest startup who wants to advertise their presence at a race.

But what skills does he have to really lead a team of engineers, designers, drivers, etc not just to a high performance point but out of an obvious trough? Bottom line, it’s turnaround management that needs to happen and when you scratch away at most people’s resumes they don’t have it.

Genuinely keen to know and hear another point of view.

Couldn’t have put it better myself.

[rdjohn]

isaldiri said:

Remains to be seen if ZB is a good egg imo. He was brought in initially primarily to bring in a major sponsor to Mclaren and hasn't exactly been successful at that. His main achievements/background have been in marketing not managing a large race team attempting to be competing at the sharp end of the grid. Nothing suggests that he's up to that job even if Mclaren are as you have also pointed out in greater trouble than merely the chap in charge.

He is a deal maker, not a visionary, or inspirational leader.

A friend up north says he likes to Brown-nose drivers and customers, but he sees the engineers and mechanics as an unfortunate necessity that makes a big dent on the bottom line.

Gil de Ferran is there to provide distance between Zak’s backside and the floor. He will not turn McLaren round. That will only happen when every member of its staff want to be winners again and can see a clear way forward.

[thegreenhell]

I'm surprised they haven't announced Alonso as the new TP yet...

Brown added that he had consulted closely with lead driver Alonso, who had been "a part of the process", and that the two new appointees will work closely to "maximise the performance of the team".

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula-one/44708491

[HustleRussell]

If they are continuing to let Alonso pull the strings then this is doomed from the start. He’s the reason Honda engines will be winning in somebody else’s car while the Renault donkey in their car never will.

[hairyben]

carl_w said:

ghost83 said:

It’s about time tbh! Was no good at lotus neither

ISTR Lotus doing quite well with Kimi when Eric was there (4th in the constructors two years running, Kimi 3rd in the WDC in 2012).

very true.

Always found the rudy faced frenchie an odd fit at mclaren though, he came across like he'd been blackmailed into the job and was desperately treading water.

[Adrian W]

I wonder how many more friends Brown has.

[Sam993]

HustleRussell said:

If they are continuing to let Alonso pull the strings then this is doomed from the start. He’s the reason Honda engines will be winning in somebody else’s car while the Renault donkey in their car never will.

Was it really Alonso's fault that (as it turns out) McLaren weren't willing to cooperate on the same level as Toro Roso and provide Honda with opportunities and feedback they needed when relaunching themselves in F1 and most importantly launching a brand new engine with brand new tech? If McLaren were responsible for everything down to gearbox and Honda only provided engine it's hard to be surprised to see them struggle. I'm struggling to see Alonso's fault there.

[rev-erend]

Sam993 said:

HustleRussell said:

If they are continuing to let Alonso pull the strings then this is doomed from the start. He’s the reason Honda engines will be winning in somebody else’s car while the Renault donkey in their car never will.

Was it really Alonso's fault that (as it turns out) McLaren weren't willing to cooperate on the same level as Toro Roso and provide Honda with opportunities and feedback they needed when relaunching themselves in F1 and most importantly launching a brand new engine with brand new tech? If McLaren were responsible for everything down to gearbox and Honda only provided engine it's hard to be surprised to see them struggle. I'm struggling to see Alonso's fault there.

I also think I remember that Honda wanted another year in development but McLaren insisted on a year earlier..

[HustleRussell]

rev-erend said:

Sam993 said:

HustleRussell said:

If they are continuing to let Alonso pull the strings then this is doomed from the start. He’s the reason Honda engines will be winning in somebody else’s car while the Renault donkey in their car never will.

Was it really Alonso's fault that (as it turns out) McLaren weren't willing to cooperate on the same level as Toro Roso and provide Honda with opportunities and feedback they needed when relaunching themselves in F1 and most importantly launching a brand new engine with brand new tech? If McLaren were responsible for everything down to gearbox and Honda only provided engine it's hard to be surprised to see them struggle. I'm struggling to see Alonso's fault there.

I also think I remember that Honda wanted another year in development but McLaren insisted on a year earlier..

My point was Alonso pressured McLaren to get rid of Honda, as a result Mclaren went from the fourth best engine with works opportunity to the third best engine as a customer and 100,000,000 worse off financially.

[Overhaul]

[tigerkoi]

rdjohn said:

isaldiri said:

Remains to be seen if ZB is a good egg imo. He was brought in initially primarily to bring in a major sponsor to Mclaren and hasn't exactly been successful at that. His main achievements/background have been in marketing not managing a large race team attempting to be competing at the sharp end of the grid. Nothing suggests that he's up to that job even if Mclaren are as you have also pointed out in greater trouble than merely the chap in charge.

He is a deal maker, not a visionary, or inspirational leader.

A friend up north says he likes to Brown-nose drivers and customers, but he sees the engineers and mechanics as an unfortunate necessity that makes a big dent on the bottom line.

Gil de Ferran is there to provide distance between Zak’s backside and the floor. He will not turn McLaren round. That will only happen when every member of its staff want to be winners again and can see a clear way forward.

On the ‘deal maker’ bit I’m not so sure. It’s like the way some people really pad out their LinkedIn profiles and the narrative is all about unbounded success and a myriad of glorious “leadership” positions. You can read right through it. He’s undoubtedly connected, as his facilitating between the likes of NASCAR, Diageo etc have shown at times. But there’s the networking and the sexy stuff and then there’s the ‘dealmaking’. With what little I know some of these highlighted successes should be more broadly shared across a range of people and companies and for the most part were likely to happen regardless of who was pouring the champagne to celebrate the ‘deal’. Brown is a professed marketing guy. Marketing guys don’t tend to make good deal makers as they talk too much.

Just a cursory look at things, Brown with a fledgling junior career in Karts and whatnot, sees a gap in the cosy fraternity that he moves in. Out of Indianapolis, he starts JMI in the mid-90s. Great. Obviously an entrepreneur with drive. JMI have a solid niche, and sell out to Chime for around $80m if I recall. But without knowing the specifics of the transaction and whether it was shares or straight cash or whatever, Spire Capital were the majority owners of JMI at the time. Brown owned 20%. Either way he would have cleared a nice lump for starting a niche business.

Then there’s United Autosports where he linked up with another guy and that’s probably sucked up a lot of startup capital. And now he’s just another employee for McLaren. Which I find slightly strange as its unusual but not unheard of for people who supposedly have done their own thing and exhibited entrepreneurial tendencies to then go and work for someone else in a formal structure. And with a bit of an ill defined job profile to start with (as Dr Z pointed out).

So I see ‘dealmaker’ as a bit of an abused term. Lots of people love the reflected glory the term bestows, and it suits their brand to be seen as such, but not many have the skill to say, negotiate and win from a position of weakness, or find a solution when you’re surrounded by virtual brick walls and it’s 11.37pm. Brown? Entrepreneurial and obviously a guy with a Motorsport passion. The guy has had a fair amount of personal success derived in a niche area. But he’s no Jimmy Lee or Henry Kravis. He’s a marketing guy who’s networked and done very well. But he’s not a killer. And judging by the very hamfisted - almost contradictory - statements he’s issued following Boulliers exit, he’s learning on the job what it takes to manage 800 people, let alone 80 at JMI. Nothing wrong in that, but there’s substance, and there’s mirage. Time will tell....

Saying all that, whoever said Brown’s best role might be as Alonso’s agent might be onto something. Theres obvious personal chemistry and loyalty there.

On the surface, initially, agree on Ferran. Then again, it’d be interesting to know what he’s like on an interpersonal level. I don’t see any real evidence of team management success on his CV, but maybe that’s not what’s called for. In any crisis/turnaround situation apart from getting the skill sets of the right people in the right place and working insanely hard over extended periods being buried under an information overload, harassing everyone of your staff in sight for updates, details, what’s important is to have key people around you who’ll tell you the good, the bad, the BS, everything and fast. There can be no editing. No dilution. None.

If Brown thinks Ferran is that sort of guy then it’s a start. I understand Ferran is close to Roger Penske, a guy who’s corporately successful across a range of industries. Brutal. A workaholic. Microscopically focussed on detail. All the skills you need to run an overhaul. Detroit Diesel, a case in point. If any of that has rubbed off on Ferran, then I can see why he might have come out of the seeming nowhere.

Sorry for the long note. I just find it interesting!

[Vocal Minority]

Overhaul said:

Great gif

[Overhaul]

Vocal Minority said:

Overhaul said:

Great gif

Has many uses..............er, Williams for example !

[StevieBee]

HustleRussell said:

If they are continuing to let Alonso pull the strings then this is doomed from the start.

Aside from the team's heritage, Alonso is really the only thing they have currently that may appeal to potential sponsors.

If you have a CEO considering a pitch from a team not currently winning but with Alonso or one that is not currently winning and with two relative unknowns, the choice is somewhat obvious. I know it's not as stark as that but you get the gist.

I wonder whether they'll offer Alonso a share in the company to keep him?

[entropy]

rdjohn said:

He is a deal maker, not a visionary, or inspirational leader.

It's a rather simplistic way of seeing and viewing IMHO.

Reminds me of BAR/Honda and Nick Fry got a lot of bashing for coming across as dull and uninspirational. Inspiration comes from the technical leaders eg. Ross Brawn turning around Ferrari and Honda/Brawn; RBR allowed Newey freedom to inspire others, build the technical resources that he wanted that he struggeled at McLaren.

[Vocal Minority]

Zack Brown in Autosport said:

"So we have identified an area in which our car this year is weaker than last year's car.

"Did we have the best chassis last year? No, definitely not.

[Sam993]

HustleRussell said:

rev-erend said:

Sam993 said:

HustleRussell said:

If they are continuing to let Alonso pull the strings then this is doomed from the start. He’s the reason Honda engines will be winning in somebody else’s car while the Renault donkey in their car never will.

Was it really Alonso's fault that (as it turns out) McLaren weren't willing to cooperate on the same level as Toro Roso and provide Honda with opportunities and feedback they needed when relaunching themselves in F1 and most importantly launching a brand new engine with brand new tech? If McLaren were responsible for everything down to gearbox and Honda only provided engine it's hard to be surprised to see them struggle. I'm struggling to see Alonso's fault there.

I also think I remember that Honda wanted another year in development but McLaren insisted on a year earlier..

My point was Alonso pressured McLaren to get rid of Honda, as a result Mclaren went from the fourth best engine with works opportunity to the third best engine as a customer and 100,000,000 worse off financially.

On the other hand do we think that Alonso really knew what caused the piss poor performance? Maybe Mclaren sold him the story about nasty Honda being difficult to work with and the Japanese culture and such and that's why he used his influence to get the Renault engine?

[tigerkoi]

Gaz. said:

StevieBee said:

HustleRussell said:

If they are continuing to let Alonso pull the strings then this is doomed from the start.

Aside from the team's heritage, Alonso is really the only thing they have currently that may appeal to potential sponsors.

If you have a CEO considering a pitch from a team not currently winning but with Alonso or one that is not currently winning and with two relative unknowns, the choice is somewhat obvious. I know it's not as stark as that but you get the gist.

I wonder whether they'll offer Alonso a share in the company to keep him?

Alternatively, 2007 $100m fine for spygate, 2009 WMSC ban TP & TD for cheating the year before, title sponsor quit. 2010 and another WMSC hearing for illegal team orders. 2013 & 2014 increasingly hostile to CEO of parent company. 2015 GP2 engine, GP2 engine at team partner's home race, 2016 & 2017 increasingly tetchy radio transmissions towards team partner culminating in another $100m leaving the team, 2018 team now have less money, paying for engines and a collosal salary just to please one man.

Really? I know some are convinced Alonso is an absolute villain but do you really think a) all that can be solely attributed to him and more specifically b) that companies the size of Honda and McLaren play divorce music based on his moaning? Tongue in cheek, surely

Alonso is a player and part of a jigsaw, sure. But no serious outfit could ever let a drivers views alone effect a corporate strategy. It’s a voice, it’s listened to, but it’s not an arbiter.

Guys like Ojjeh and Takahiro Hachigo don’t rip up big agreements and lose corporate face based just on Alonso’s outbursts in and out the cockpit. No chance. It happened due to (mis)information and likely groupthink, that a cabal of engineering guys viewed their chassis as perfect, and the engine therefore, woeful. Rigid thinking then abounds through Woking and soon the McLaren board think mostly everyone is on the same page. BS as it may have been. But people like Ojjeh would have only sanctioned such a move based on multiple data points that would have justified their decision (however off they may have ultimately been).

I’m happy to be wrong and hear another view, but let’s say Ojjeh and people like that make business decisions in reaction to emotional outbursts or a driver politicking. Then it’d be like that old saying - a fool and his money were lucky enough to get together in the first place.