What separates the excellent from the elite?
Discussion
StevieBee said:
PhilAsia said:
StevieBee said:
Tommy Byrne is widely regarded as the most naturally gifted racing driver of the past 60 years - but lacked the ability to capitalise on his talent.
Is he? By who?He won a F1 test in a McLaren. Senna put down a couple of marker laps and Byrne beat them pretty much first time out. Dennis didn't want him anywhere near the team and was only fulfilling an obligation to run him in the test. Worried the times may start a campaign to get him a seat, he asked the mechanics to detune the (either the engine or suspension, can't recall which). He still beat Senna's time.
Have a read of the book Crashed and Byrned. Very interesting read!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ONrC2TVqLPg
Yes, Byrne was talented but foolish (by his own admission).
....but widely regarded as the ‘most naturally talented driver for 60 years’?! Hyperbolic nonsense that I’m sure the journalists you quote wouldn’t back.
‘The most naturally talented driver over the last 60 years who f
ked it up by being a tt’ Possibly true..
I have some sympathy for the fact that he came from no money but others managed (notably Nigel at that time).
I also don’t think that all the ‘elite’ were F1 champions in the same way that many F1 Champions were not the elite.
....but widely regarded as the ‘most naturally talented driver for 60 years’?! Hyperbolic nonsense that I’m sure the journalists you quote wouldn’t back.
‘The most naturally talented driver over the last 60 years who f
ked it up by being a tt’ Possibly true..I have some sympathy for the fact that he came from no money but others managed (notably Nigel at that time).
I also don’t think that all the ‘elite’ were F1 champions in the same way that many F1 Champions were not the elite.
ettore said:
Yes, Byrne was talented but foolish (by his own admission).
....but widely regarded as the ‘most naturally talented driver for 60 years’?! Hyperbolic nonsense that I’m sure the journalists you quote wouldn’t back.
‘The most naturally talented driver over the last 60 years who fked it up by being a tt’ Possibly true..
I have some sympathy for the fact that he came from no money but others managed (notably Nigel at that time).
I also don’t think that all the ‘elite’ were F1 champions in the same way that many F1 Champions were not the elite.
I seem to remember, some thought later that Senna hesitated going into F3 to avoid clashing with Byrne choosing FF2000 instead for a season, this was a category most aspiring F1 hopefuls skipped. ....but widely regarded as the ‘most naturally talented driver for 60 years’?! Hyperbolic nonsense that I’m sure the journalists you quote wouldn’t back.
‘The most naturally talented driver over the last 60 years who f
ked it up by being a tt’ Possibly true..I have some sympathy for the fact that he came from no money but others managed (notably Nigel at that time).
I also don’t think that all the ‘elite’ were F1 champions in the same way that many F1 Champions were not the elite.
I believe Senna also said that his old karting rival Terry Fullerton was his most fearsome opponent.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_Fullerton
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_Fullerton
hot metal said:
ettore said:
Yes, Byrne was talented but foolish (by his own admission).
....but widely regarded as the ‘most naturally talented driver for 60 years’?! Hyperbolic nonsense that I’m sure the journalists you quote wouldn’t back.
‘The most naturally talented driver over the last 60 years who fked it up by being a tt’ Possibly true..
I have some sympathy for the fact that he came from no money but others managed (notably Nigel at that time).
I also don’t think that all the ‘elite’ were F1 champions in the same way that many F1 Champions were not the elite.
I seem to remember, some thought later that Senna hesitated going into F3 to avoid clashing with Byrne choosing FF2000 instead for a season, this was a category most aspiring F1 hopefuls skipped. ....but widely regarded as the ‘most naturally talented driver for 60 years’?! Hyperbolic nonsense that I’m sure the journalists you quote wouldn’t back.
‘The most naturally talented driver over the last 60 years who f
ked it up by being a tt’ Possibly true..I have some sympathy for the fact that he came from no money but others managed (notably Nigel at that time).
I also don’t think that all the ‘elite’ were F1 champions in the same way that many F1 Champions were not the elite.
StevieBee said:
I recall an articles in F! racing years back in which the author explained Schumacher's uncanny ability sense where the 'friction circle'. This, IIRC, is an area roughly the size of a lens cap on each tyre from which 70% of the grip comes from. It moves around constantly and he knew where it was and where it would go and adjust his style to suit.
Err, no. The Friction Circle is a graphical plot, pioneered by Mark Donohue IIRC, of forward acceleration against lateral acceleration during a particular corner or an entire lap. It allows you to see if you're using all the acceleration supported by the tyre, assuming that that acceleration is available both longitudinally (e.g. during braking) and laterally (eg during cornering). I always plot a friction circle to see just how crap my race laps are... Good race drivers, unlike me, can keep their car right at the edge of the circle during an entire lap and the car does indeed then feel like it's dancing.Some info here: http://thunval.com/websites/secondsite/trailer/tec...
T
The Tommy Byrne story has been hyped up by various people and now he's become this forgotten genius who would have ruled the racetracks if only he'd done (x) spoken to (y) or turned up on time for (z)
In reality, he was naturally gifted but only demonstrated potential, not actual results.
If he was that good, he'd have succeeded outside of F1. His career in the States was by no means spectacular.
To call him the greatest natural talent of the last 60 years is a fallacy.
In reality, he was naturally gifted but only demonstrated potential, not actual results.
If he was that good, he'd have succeeded outside of F1. His career in the States was by no means spectacular.
To call him the greatest natural talent of the last 60 years is a fallacy.
Muzzer79 said:
The Tommy Byrne story has been hyped up by various people and now he's become this forgotten genius who would have ruled the racetracks if only he'd done (x) spoken to (y) or turned up on time for (z)
In reality, he was naturally gifted but only demonstrated potential, not actual results.
If he was that good, he'd have succeeded outside of F1. His career in the States was by no means spectacular.
To call him the greatest natural talent of the last 60 years is a fallacy.
You'd think the other teams would queue outside his door, not only Macca...In reality, he was naturally gifted but only demonstrated potential, not actual results.
If he was that good, he'd have succeeded outside of F1. His career in the States was by no means spectacular.
To call him the greatest natural talent of the last 60 years is a fallacy.
angrymoby said:
some people seem to be confusing 'talent' with application or realisation of said talent
no one knows how talented Tommy actually was, as he appeared to have pretty much zero application
Remember watching him in F3...no one knows how talented Tommy actually was, as he appeared to have pretty much zero application
Talented, but just from the wrong era. Perhaps in the 70’s, he would have been in the Hunt / Sheene mould.
I presume that he would have been a PR nightmare.
Byrne, might have been great, but in the end, was not
Clark from 72 race starts had 20 DNF`s, if Chapman had not relied so much on string & piano wire as building components his record would have been greater. Half of those retirements included a fastest lap or pole, real shame. Most of the last 2 seasons of his career was spent in cars with underdeveloped or just plain ste engines. From a percentage point of view his record still stands up against the likes of Shuey or Lewis.
He never once finished 5th
podium or car broke,
Quote:
`I have some sympathy for the fact that he came from no money but others managed (notably Nigel at that time).We are talking elite here,,, yes?`
Mansell was very fortunate to get on Colin Chapman`s good side, his junior formula record was poor, yes, the worst machinery but he simply would not get noticed today. How many have vanished that way ?? Lots, Byrne is just a good story now, one that slipped through the grate.
Clark from 72 race starts had 20 DNF`s, if Chapman had not relied so much on string & piano wire as building components his record would have been greater. Half of those retirements included a fastest lap or pole, real shame. Most of the last 2 seasons of his career was spent in cars with underdeveloped or just plain s
te engines. From a percentage point of view his record still stands up against the likes of Shuey or Lewis. He never once finished 5th
podium or car broke, Quote:
`I have some sympathy for the fact that he came from no money but others managed (notably Nigel at that time).We are talking elite here,,, yes?`
Mansell was very fortunate to get on Colin Chapman`s good side, his junior formula record was poor, yes, the worst machinery but he simply would not get noticed today. How many have vanished that way ?? Lots, Byrne is just a good story now, one that slipped through the grate.
Edited by hot metal on Tuesday 30th November 22:00
Scenario time:
The ultimate ‘Race of Champions’ / Rallysprint style of event....
Multiple races / events, but in identical cars...
Who would be raised to the status of ELITE.
It’s time to sort the wheat from the chaf.
Love to see them throwing a works SD1 / TR8 etc through the rally stage.
The ultimate ‘Race of Champions’ / Rallysprint style of event....
Multiple races / events, but in identical cars...
Who would be raised to the status of ELITE.
It’s time to sort the wheat from the chaf.
Love to see them throwing a works SD1 / TR8 etc through the rally stage.
Edited by Milkyway on Wednesday 1st December 09:44
I’m no expert and many might disagree with my comment, but…….
For me the Elite seem to almost always make the best of a bad situation, to pull the rabbit out of the hat and get a decent result even when things don’t go their way. This could either be out on the track or on the team politics side of things. They also probably figure quite highly on the autism scale.
I wasn’t a fan of Senna, but if you compare Senna to Mansell, you’ll see what I mean.
For me the Elite seem to almost always make the best of a bad situation, to pull the rabbit out of the hat and get a decent result even when things don’t go their way. This could either be out on the track or on the team politics side of things. They also probably figure quite highly on the autism scale.
I wasn’t a fan of Senna, but if you compare Senna to Mansell, you’ll see what I mean.
105.4 said:
I’m no expert and many might disagree with my comment, but…….
For me the Elite seem to almost always make the best of a bad situation, to pull the rabbit out of the hat and get a decent result even when things don’t go their way. This could either be out on the track or on the team politics side of things. They also probably figure quite highly on the autism scale.
I wasn’t a fan of Senna, but if you compare Senna to Mansell, you’ll see what I mean.
What's autism got to do with the price of bread? For me the Elite seem to almost always make the best of a bad situation, to pull the rabbit out of the hat and get a decent result even when things don’t go their way. This could either be out on the track or on the team politics side of things. They also probably figure quite highly on the autism scale.
I wasn’t a fan of Senna, but if you compare Senna to Mansell, you’ll see what I mean.
Stirling Moss was unquestionably elite. He could charm the pants off anyone and was about as far removed from autistic as you could get.
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