2021 Cost Cap Breaches
Discussion
I can see why Toto is doing this and some of it is of course sour grapes. However this is a race weekend and the media is on them. The FIA have shown a real reluctance to unring the bell so he is getting his case in early. Next Wednesday they will be unpacking in Japan. IF Redbull turn out to have been found to have breached the cap then he probably wants to be able to demonstrate the mood of the teams, the issues at stake and pressure from the media, before the FIA, decide what to do, rather than having to get them to change their mind.
That said I would be surprised if Red Bull are over, as I thought having a junior team was already a huge advantage with budget caps.
That said I would be surprised if Red Bull are over, as I thought having a junior team was already a huge advantage with budget caps.
Evercross said:
Two reasons - firstly, the penalties are clearly laid out so you don't need me or anyone else to rake over them.
The problem is, they are not. The rules say that a range of penalties are available, but it's an enormous range either for a minor or major breach of the cap. ch37 said:
Given that multiple teams with car manufacturing divisions are known to have made staff redundant to meet the cost cap, it suggests it's not as easy as just moving staff to work on 'some aero for a hypercar' to cover it up. This will be forensic work that takes time.
Quite. Laying off staff looks good on the balance sheet when one has to present a set of figures to the FIA and makes a good sob-story for the media looking for heroes and villains. It doesn't prevent Joe Bloggs being made redundant from "(Insert car manufacturer here) F1 Team" on Friday and then finding a new job with "(Insert car manufacturer here) plc" on Monday.Short of hiring a massive team of detectives to put every single (current and ex) F1 employee under 24-hours observation or operating the entirety of F1 inside a bubble I cannot see how a budget cap can be rigidly enforced, but this goes to the other end of the spectrum.
The implication here is that a team has wilfully flouted the cap thinking they will be able to play the system to get away with it. I find that very hard to believe, unless a trap was laid that one or more teams have fallen into.
Objectivity tells me no-one in the paddock is that stupid. No - this looks to me like another round of gamesmanship.
Edited by Evercross on Saturday 1st October 14:10
Graveworm said:
That said I would be surprised if Red Bull are over, as I thought having a junior team was already a huge advantage with budget caps.
I tend to agree (although that might just turn out to be wishful thinking). It feels like the bendy floor saga - everyone was convinced it would hurt Redbull but ultimately it seems they lost no performance from the TD it whatsoever. However, if any team, doesn't matter which, has breached the cost cap, there will be very close scrutiny of how the FIA deal with it. kambites said:
Evercross said:
Two reasons - firstly, the penalties are clearly laid out so you don't need me or anyone else to rake over them.
The problem is, they are not. The rules say that a range of penalties are available, but it's an enormous range either for a minor or major breach of the cap. Evercross said:
Objectivity tells me no-one in the paddock is that stupid. No - this looks to me like another round of gamesmanship.
Objectivity tells me that if the FIA broke the rules during a race that fixed that race (and perhaps even the WDC) they would immediately look to rectify that issue. Because the sport must be fair and the rules must be applied. But look what happened.
Honestly Brundles comment to the measure of, the decision shouldn’t affect last years result, is he senile now or something?
Any professional sport, regardless of the result - if the victor is proven to be cheating they lose the result.
We know the FIA are limp on matters so nothing like what anyone expects to happen, will in fact happen. I suspect a large secretive fine and WCC points deduction this year.
I feel for Max, I don’t think he deserved the championship last year, the AD circumstances and his petulant attitude soured it for me, but this year he is wholely deserving. The possibility of this (if it’s true) tarnishing another WDC for him would be awful.
This whole political farce that’s taken part within F1 these past few years is repulsive to a lifelong F1 fan. Horner has been a thorn in F1 for years now, and Totto is equally becoming a nuisance too.
Can anyone tell me Helmut Markos role? Vindictive reprehensible old man who spouts poison, very much the same sentiment of the late Nikki Lauda too.
Any professional sport, regardless of the result - if the victor is proven to be cheating they lose the result.
We know the FIA are limp on matters so nothing like what anyone expects to happen, will in fact happen. I suspect a large secretive fine and WCC points deduction this year.
I feel for Max, I don’t think he deserved the championship last year, the AD circumstances and his petulant attitude soured it for me, but this year he is wholely deserving. The possibility of this (if it’s true) tarnishing another WDC for him would be awful.
This whole political farce that’s taken part within F1 these past few years is repulsive to a lifelong F1 fan. Horner has been a thorn in F1 for years now, and Totto is equally becoming a nuisance too.
Can anyone tell me Helmut Markos role? Vindictive reprehensible old man who spouts poison, very much the same sentiment of the late Nikki Lauda too.
kambites said:
Graveworm said:
That said I would be surprised if Red Bull are over, as I thought having a junior team was already a huge advantage with budget caps.
I tend to agree (although that might just turn out to be wishful thinking). It feels like the bendy floor saga - everyone was convinced it would hurt Redbull but ultimately it seems they lost no performance from the TD it whatsoever. However, if any team, doesn't matter which, has breached the cost cap, there will be very close scrutiny of how the FIA deal with it. Jasandjules said:
Objectivity tells me that if the FIA broke the rules during a race that fixed that race (and perhaps even the WDC) they would immediately look to rectify that issue. Because the sport must be fair and the rules must be applied.
But look what happened.
I don't think the issues are the same (at the risk of raising 'that sBut look what happened.
t again'). The AD2021 situation was IMO a direct result of the idiotic decision to allow team principles to lobby the race director while the GP was in progress. Fault on several sides there as far as I am concerned and it was more cock-up than conspiracy.Plus, as I said, this hasn't actually been proven to be true yet - just leaks/rumour/speculation and an allegation that a team has done something blatant or stupid - neither of which is truly credible but pitched at a level that a proportion of F1 followers desperately want to believe and another proportion are inclined to think 'well it is them after all', and the media gets a story that isn't "F1 Championship settled with 5 races to go".
As someone who isn't in either of the two main-rival camps from the AD debacle, this latest allegation just isn't passing the sniff test for me. I don't think it is credible that any team would deliberately flout the cap and then dare the FIA not to do something about it, and I don't think any team is stupid enough to serve a set of accounts that shows they went over either.
For this to be true something else must have come to light, so question is how and from where? That the story broke from the German media has me thinking - was this the true reason why VAG pursued their on-the-face-of-it strange double bid to enter F1 both with a full works Audi team and an alleged totally separate Porsche engine program with Red Bull? Were Porsche just being a trojan horse to allow them access to Red Bull, and their due diligence was really an attempt to uncover ways in which RB were avoiding the budget cap that would not otherwise have gone public?
The tie-in seemed senseless to most at the time, but maybe there was an ulterior motive by VAG to hamstring a main rival before they'd even entered the sport?
Edited by Evercross on Saturday 1st October 14:51
Evercross said:
I don't think the issues are the same (at the risk of raising 'that st again'). The AD2021 situation was IMO a direct result of the idiotic decision to allow team principles to lobby the race director while the GP was in progress. Fault on several sides there as far as I am concerned and it was more cock-up than conspiracy.
Please say how this explains the justification of the decision that was made by the stewards. t again'). The AD2021 situation was IMO a direct result of the idiotic decision to allow team principles to lobby the race director while the GP was in progress. Fault on several sides there as far as I am concerned and it was more cock-up than conspiracy.Marko has come out and said it revolves around staff transferred to another RB company and whether their salaries are indeed covered by the cap.
I'll assume that it's staff transferring to the RB Powertrains, which isn't included in the cap.
He also mentioned that the figures leaked are massively in excess of the actual figures.
AMuS have backtracked slightly and have stated that RB and AM must be presumed innocent for now - presumably RB lawyers have been on the phone.
Since Toto's advisor moved into one of the head honcho roles at the FIA at the start of the year there have been a few 'odd' leaks...
I'll assume that it's staff transferring to the RB Powertrains, which isn't included in the cap.
He also mentioned that the figures leaked are massively in excess of the actual figures.
AMuS have backtracked slightly and have stated that RB and AM must be presumed innocent for now - presumably RB lawyers have been on the phone.
Since Toto's advisor moved into one of the head honcho roles at the FIA at the start of the year there have been a few 'odd' leaks...
No one showed the FIA they went over (or not more than 4.9%). It’s almost certainly the FIA invested with auditors and discovered a bunch of hidden costs on 2 teams and this is what is being talked about.
MiniMan64 said:
I’m amazed how anyone can say it’s not a big deal if proved.
If proved, does push Red Bull above Ferrari in the F1 Biggest Cheaters table?
RacerMike does exactly what he complains about others doing - every time RB does something bad he says everyone is doing it and it’s Mercedes fault for accusing them. If proved, does push Red Bull above Ferrari in the F1 Biggest Cheaters table?
Evercross said:
I don't think the issues are the same (at the risk of raising 'that st again'). The AD2021 situation was IMO a direct result of the idiotic decision to allow team principles to lobby the race director while the GP was in progress. Fault on several sides there as far as I am concerned and it was more cock-up than conspiracy.
Plus, as I said, this hasn't actually been proven to be true yet - just leaks/rumour/speculation and an allegation that a team has done something blatant or stupid - neither of which is truly credible but pitched at a level that a proportion of F1 followers desperately want to believe and another proportion are inclined to think 'well it is them after all'.
As someone who isn't in either of the two main-rival camps from the AD debacle, this latest allegation just isn't passing the sniff test for me. I don't think it is credible that any team would deliberately flout the cap and then dare the FIA not to do something about it, and I don't think any team is stupid enough to serve a set of accounts that shows they went over either.
For this to be true something else must have come to light, so question is how and from where? That the story broke from the German media has me thinking - was this the true reason why VAG pursued their on-the-face-of-it strange double bid to enter F1 both with a full works Audi team and an alleged totally separate Porsche engine program with Red Bull? Were Porsche just being a trojan horse to allow them access to Red Bull, and their due diligence was really an attempt to uncover ways in which RB were avoiding the budget cap that would not otherwise have gone public?
The tie-in seemed senseless to most at the time, but maybe there was an ulterior motive by VAG to hamstring a main rival before they'd even entered the sport?
this is an insane post.t again'). The AD2021 situation was IMO a direct result of the idiotic decision to allow team principles to lobby the race director while the GP was in progress. Fault on several sides there as far as I am concerned and it was more cock-up than conspiracy.Plus, as I said, this hasn't actually been proven to be true yet - just leaks/rumour/speculation and an allegation that a team has done something blatant or stupid - neither of which is truly credible but pitched at a level that a proportion of F1 followers desperately want to believe and another proportion are inclined to think 'well it is them after all'.
As someone who isn't in either of the two main-rival camps from the AD debacle, this latest allegation just isn't passing the sniff test for me. I don't think it is credible that any team would deliberately flout the cap and then dare the FIA not to do something about it, and I don't think any team is stupid enough to serve a set of accounts that shows they went over either.
For this to be true something else must have come to light, so question is how and from where? That the story broke from the German media has me thinking - was this the true reason why VAG pursued their on-the-face-of-it strange double bid to enter F1 both with a full works Audi team and an alleged totally separate Porsche engine program with Red Bull? Were Porsche just being a trojan horse to allow them access to Red Bull, and their due diligence was really an attempt to uncover ways in which RB were avoiding the budget cap that would not otherwise have gone public?
The tie-in seemed senseless to most at the time, but maybe there was an ulterior motive by VAG to hamstring a main rival before they'd even entered the sport?
You’ve already argued it’s not ok to discuss or mention red bull in the context of a rules breach, because its all speculation and nothing is confirmed yet. You have said you are not convinced by the information we yet have.
And now in this post you are postulating that VW and Porsche both spent likely millions of euros, and engaged in activities that would affect their stock prices, publicly discussing and privately evaluating entering F1 in order to make public dodgy accounting by red bull to disadvantage a future rival.
What evidence do you think would be sufficient to convince them to do that, but not sufficient to convince you that red bull have cocked up. And where would they have got it from? And how would they have got it?
honda_exige said:
AMuS have backtracked slightly and have stated that RB and AM must be presumed innocent for now.
No st!The damage is done though and the media got their story for the weekend (and the days following the race).
honda_exige said:
Since Toto's advisor moved into one of the head honcho roles at the FIA at the start of the year there have been a few 'odd' leaks...
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