Williams F1

[Car-Matt]

TheDeuce said:

Lebo44 said:

skwdenyer said:

I wonder if he spends the same sort of time looking at onboards?

One polish reporter asked him whether he looks at his or George's onboards after races and Robert said that he doesn't need as he perfectly knows what and how he is driving.

He's driving a turd and he's driving it into last place all season. That's the short version - although I'd have thought the engineers might like a little greater insight than that!

The side by side onboards have been pretty revealing in my view. I agree with the previous post, GR is making the best of what he has, RK either hasn't adapted, or the disability has an influence, or both.

After listening to the Rob Smedley Beyond the Grid i'd suspect the race engineers all know why RK is slower without having to speak to him

[Lebo44]

Car-Matt said:

After listening to the Rob Smedley Beyond the Grid i'd suspect the race engineers all know why RK is slower without having to speak to him

Is this a recent one? Do you have a link maybe? I'd be nice to hear his opinion. As far as I remember he mentioned before the season that the biggest problem for RK could be tire management.

[skwdenyer]

Lebo44 said:

skwdenyer said:

I wonder if he spends the same sort of time looking at onboards?

One polish reporter asked him whether he looks at his or George's onboards after races and Robert said that he doesn't need as he perfectly knows what and how he is driving.

If so then I'm afraid he's not going up in my estimation. I'd say set in his ways more than rubbish in that case.

[TheDeuce]

skwdenyer said:

If so then I'm afraid he's not going up in my estimation. I'd say set in his ways more than rubbish in that case.

Being set in your ways is pretty rubbish for an F1 driver. It's the number one sport in which the rules of play and tools change so frequently.

Personally I prefer to believe he is at heart an excellent driver and he probably isn't stubborn by intent. But the disability has to have an effect (it's a 'disability' after all), and his age and time out of F1...

Given all the above, I would expect a young talent like GR to out perform him. It makes complete sense really. For some reason he's the one driver that always seems to get excuses offered to him when the performance gap shows.

[skwdenyer]

Lebo44 said:

Car-Matt said:

After listening to the Rob Smedley Beyond the Grid i'd suspect the race engineers all know why RK is slower without having to speak to him

Is this a recent one? Do you have a link maybe? I'd be nice to hear his opinion. As far as I remember he mentioned before the season that the biggest problem for RK could be tire management.

https://youtu.be/5scvYrmO4tM?t=4491

"The biggest thing for him is the tyres; everything else he'll get used to very quickly."

[sgtBerbatov]

skwdenyer said:

Lebo44 said:

Car-Matt said:

After listening to the Rob Smedley Beyond the Grid i'd suspect the race engineers all know why RK is slower without having to speak to him

Is this a recent one? Do you have a link maybe? I'd be nice to hear his opinion. As far as I remember he mentioned before the season that the biggest problem for RK could be tire management.

https://youtu.be/5scvYrmO4tM?t=4491

"The biggest thing for him is the tyres; everything else he'll get used to very quickly."

And that's a fair assessment. When F1 introduced grooved tyres for 1998 drivers struggled, and some never got on top of it. When the tyre compounds changed in the last years of the Bridgestone era drivers like Michael Schumacher struggled to get the best out of the tyres. He even struggled when he returned to Mercedes. And that's a 7 time World Champion!

There's an undercurrent of posters seeming to think it's easy to just adapt to the change in rubber, but I don't think it is. But what I do know is that most of those casting shaddows etc are in the same position as I am.

[Car-Matt]

sgtBerbatov said:

skwdenyer said:

Lebo44 said:

Car-Matt said:

After listening to the Rob Smedley Beyond the Grid i'd suspect the race engineers all know why RK is slower without having to speak to him

Is this a recent one? Do you have a link maybe? I'd be nice to hear his opinion. As far as I remember he mentioned before the season that the biggest problem for RK could be tire management.

https://youtu.be/5scvYrmO4tM?t=4491

"The biggest thing for him is the tyres; everything else he'll get used to very quickly."

And that's a fair assessment. When F1 introduced grooved tyres for 1998 drivers struggled, and some never got on top of it. When the tyre compounds changed in the last years of the Bridgestone era drivers like Michael Schumacher struggled to get the best out of the tyres. He even struggled when he returned to Mercedes. And that's a 7 time World Champion!

There's an undercurrent of posters seeming to think it's easy to just adapt to the change in rubber, but I don't think it is. But what I do know is that most of those casting shaddows etc are in the same position as I am.

Just because RK might have an excuse does that make his piss poor performance any faster ? No, this is a thread about the team and it’s obvious they have the wrong driver in that car for performance and competition for GR who by the end of the season will be in a comfort bubble and this may affect his career.

[Lebo44]

Russell overtaking Kubica just after the start of Canada. Just notice how fast Russell is compared to KUB on a straight. It's just doesn't seem natural, can it be explained only by tires?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtWk6jDeL0U

This is similar to GR overtaking in Spain where he super easily surpassed Robert. Robert after the race said that he was switching something on his steering wheel while listening to an engineer and he just didn't notice Russell. This explanation sounded weird, very amateurish then but after seeing this onboard from Canada anyone can notice how easily GR overtakes Robert. Moreover, GR is constantly asking his engineers about Robert's pace during races, while RK seems like he doesn't care at all.

Edited by Lebo44 on Wednesday 12th June 11:17

[Lebo44]

Lebo44 said:

Russell overtaking Kubica just after the start of Canada. Just notice how fast Russell is compared to KUB on a straight. It's just doesn't seem natural, can it be explained only by tires?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtWk6jDeL0U

There are so many strange things happening in Williams: layoff of important staff after the start of a season, they cannot produce their car on time, faulty car (problems with Kubica's floor), lack of clear segregation duty (who is a top manager there, Clair or Head?), 2 seconds behind average team, 4 seconds behind top teams, strange PR ("we are excited"...), engineers not knowing simple race rules (problems with RK's start from the pit lane), strange strategy (why 2 pits stops for RK in Canada), RK being 1.4 second (!) slower on new tires than Russell but having decent pace in Monaco. All this just doesn't help with me accepting simple explanation for RK undeperformance - the tires. It's just sound too simple to be true given all this William's issues in the background.

[HustleRussell]

TheDeuce said:

Guys.. of course none of us know the full story. But it's been 6 race weekends and one test day and Russell has consistently out-performed kubica. At what point can we call a long wooden handled thing that digs holes a spade?

At some point in the season the intra-team rivalry is decided one way or the other, that's an inalienable motorsport fact.

However you do appear to be continually bashing Robert in this thread.

I am eagerly awaiting resolution. What is the internal politik, are the cars the same, what is the driver rhetoric behind the scenes. Time and time again we get a false impression of relative driver performances and the full facts are not revealed until contracts end sometimes years later.

George should be faster than Robert. He is as well prepared as it is possible for a 2019 rookie to be. He has pretty much monstered every step of his ascent and is on a similar level to Lando Norris. He has done all of the above during this current decade on Pirelli tyres.

What contribution is Robert making out of the car? I would suggest that it could prove decisive in the performance of the team as an entity even if we do eventually have to conclude that unfortunately he will never again be the driver he was at the end of the previous decade.

At the end of the day the team has a st car and no chance of scoring points. Holistically what would be the point in chucking in another promising rookie? Who is going to have the confidence and the gravity to lead the team out of the doldrums, technically and organizationally?

Edited by HustleRussell on Wednesday 12th June 12:45

[Car-Matt]

HustleRussell said:

At the end of the day the team has a st car and no chance of scoring points. Holistically what would be the point in chucking in another promising rookie? Who is going to have the confidence and the gravity to lead the team out of the doldrums, technically and organizationally?

Edited by HustleRussell on Wednesday 12th June 12:45

The point would be competition for George to continue his development into either a winner if they make a good car or a saleable asset, this wont happen if he gets in a comfort bubble when he isnt pushed hard

Robert is in his second season at Williams, seems to know less tricks to get the car singing that GR and was there last year also so clearly hasnt influenced development and performance in the right way after last season. If he's not on top of the tyres how can his feedback be of any value?

I'd say hes the worst kind of pay driver, one that pays for a seat to make a team viable but honestly, isnt bringing any performance to the table.

[HustleRussell]

Car-Matt said:

• Robert is in his second season at Williams
• seems to know less tricks to get the car singing that GR and was there last year also so clearly hasnt influenced development and performance in the right way after last season.
• If he's not on top of the tyres how can his feedback be of any value?

• He isn't though, is he?
• There is no factual basis for this, it is purely conjecture
• Who is 'on top of the tyres'? Mercedes, and..?

[Teddy Lop]

In q1 there was less time between the fastest lap of the session and the time that qualified 18th, than that car and the first Williams in 19th.

This last happened in Melbourne.

[Car-Matt]

HustleRussell said:

Car-Matt said:

• Robert is in his second season at Williams
• seems to know less tricks to get the car singing that GR and was there last year also so clearly hasnt influenced development and performance in the right way after last season.
• If he's not on top of the tyres how can his feedback be of any value?

• He isn't though, is he?
• There is no factual basis for this, it is purely conjecture
• Who is 'on top of the tyres'? Mercedes, and..?

He was there last year
The car is no better
He is getting trounced


Excuses or not, it’s not helping is it

[TheDeuce]

HustleRussell said:

However you do appear to be continually bashing Robert in this thread.

I appreciate I appear to be bashing him, but I'm actually bashing those that continually find or support new excuses for his poor performance.

I've said a number of very kind things about him personally - his recovery effort is indeed inspirational. His personal goal has been realised, I'm just determined to be realistic about the end result.

[skwdenyer]

Lebo44 said:

Russell overtaking Kubica just after the start of Canada. Just notice how fast Russell is compared to KUB on a straight. It's just doesn't seem natural, can it be explained only by tires?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtWk6jDeL0U

This is similar to GR overtaking in Spain where he super easily surpassed Robert. Robert after the race said that he was switching something on his steering wheel while listening to an engineer and he just didn't notice Russell. This explanation sounded weird, very amateurish then but after seeing this onboard from Canada anyone can notice how easily GR overtakes Robert. Moreover, GR is constantly asking his engineers about Robert's pace during races, while RK seems like he doesn't care at all.

Edited by Lebo44 on Wednesday 12th June 11:17

OK, so this is T13. If you look at the onboard comparison from quali, GR was markedly faster on the way out of T11.

T11 is just before the DRS activation zone. If we use the DRS line as a comparison, from quali at https://youtu.be/U8-hoenaPxs?t=58 then we see GR showing 5 red lights vs RK with only 2 (change-up lights, since the video has no graphics). Is that 7th gear at the point?

We can get a sense of revs from an earlier video, the comparison of corner speeds in Barcelona at T9: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZjTGSUWgtc since that has graphics. 5 reds = 11,250 rpm, the blues then come on together at 11,450 rpm and run out a little later - max is 12k. 2 red lights means about 10,750 rpm.

A rough calculation says - in 7th - 40 rpm = 1 km/h. So that speed difference is about 281 vs 269 km/h at the DRS activation point.

Assuming they're not traction limited, they will accelerate at the same rate down to T13, albeit that GR will get a tow from RK. The speed differential will have got GR closer to RK at the start of the straight, and the two will have maintained a differential. DRS is worth perhaps 12 km/h; a tow? Let's assume something a little less. The cars are still accelerating (albeit slowly) down to T13, so the speed differential is maybe 12 km/h (DRS activation point difference) + say 8 km/h (tow) = 20 km/h.

The overtake video shows the car passing with a single car length in around 1 second. The FW42 is 5.7m long, which would (by this rough calculation) give a relative speed of 20 km/h. Note the granularity of the YouTube time counter is only 1 second, so there's some tolerance on that.

However, looks like our calculation is within the margins. At that point in quali, GR was faster; at that point in the race, GR was faster.

Why? Continuing my previous analysis of a few posts ago, we need to look at T10: https://youtu.be/U8-hoenaPxs?t=50

RK is carrying at least 200 rpm less at the T10 braking point. They brake at the same point. RK turns in several metres later than GR, but takes a much tighter apex (i.e. more lock at turn-in). At the apex, RK has more lock on, and is over the inside curb a little, whereas GR is on a wider line and carrying more speed. Past the apex, RK unwinds a little lock then has to put on more lock again, then takes a tighter line through T11. At the exit of T11, GR is already a full gear up on RK.

Now, as before, we have no idea if RK's setup is so compromised that he's driving to the car, or whether GR is just better at driving to the car that's given. What is certainly true is that RK's lines are consistent with those in the F1 "simulator" and are also consistent with what he was doing in his earlier career (always taking more inside curb, etc.). Clearly this worked for him in the past, but is absolutely not working for him with this particular car.

[Fundoreen]

RK has had an amazing comeback from that sort of injury to be in an F1 car. If it was the mercedes team he would be finishing in and around the top 3 while Russell would have been winning races. Suddenly its not so bad and he's a hero.
To be jumping all over him for this situation is not cricket.
I would suspect he would have got F1 out of his system after this season and can move on.
There ar 17-18 people on the current grid that will never be F1 world champion either.

[Teddy Lop]

Fundoreen said:

RK has had an amazing comeback from that sort of injury to be in an F1 car. If it was the mercedes team he would be finishing in and around the top 3 while Russell would have been winning races. Suddenly its not so bad and he's a hero.
To be jumping all over him for this situation is not cricket.
I would suspect he would have got F1 out of his system after this season and can move on.
There ar 17-18 people on the current grid that will never be F1 world champion either.

well 3 of the 20 have already been champ so you're saying that none of the other drivers will win titles?

What do you know? Is Hamilton going to race until he's 50? And retire with about 20 titles?

[Nampahc Niloc]

Teddy Lop said:

Fundoreen said:

RK has had an amazing comeback from that sort of injury to be in an F1 car. If it was the mercedes team he would be finishing in and around the top 3 while Russell would have been winning races. Suddenly its not so bad and he's a hero.
To be jumping all over him for this situation is not cricket.
I would suspect he would have got F1 out of his system after this season and can move on.
There ar 17-18 people on the current grid that will never be F1 world champion either.

well 3 of the 20 have already been champ so you're saying that none of the other drivers will win titles?

What do you know? Is Hamilton going to race until he's 50? And retire with about 20 titles?

No need to be facetious. Though he may have been exaggerating, his sentiment is correct. The vast majority of F1 drivers will never be world champion.

[DanielSan]

It could well be that the other drivers on the grid now don't win championships and a couple of quick rookies come in before Hamilton/Vettel retire, take their seats and are the drivers who go on to be champions...