Honda to leave F1
Discussion
Leithen said:
Oh to have been with Cyril Abiteboul when he heard this news. 
Been busy all day and just seen this. Well, actually I saw it an hour ago but have only just stopped laughing about it!
Presumably the only way forward is for Mateschitz to buy the assets from Honda and continue to run the engine program as Red Bull - because it’s either that or go grovelling back to Abiteboul and be prepared to pay top dollar for engine supply, and neither Marko nor Horner seem like the kind of guy to grovel anywhere.
Mercedes and Ferrari aren’t going to touch the Red Bullies with a barge pole, they have their own reputations and don’t fancy getting them trashed in public by their own customer, every time said customer has a bad day at the office!
Sandpit Steve said:
Been busy all day and just seen this.
Well, actually I saw it an hour ago but have only just stopped laughing about it!
Presumably the only way forward is for Mateschitz to buy the assets from Honda and continue to run the engine program as Red Bull - because it’s either that or go grovelling back to Abiteboul and be prepared to pay top dollar for engine supply, and neither Marko nor Horner seem like the kind of guy to grovel anywhere.
Mercedes and Ferrari aren’t going to touch the Red Bullies with a barge pole, they have their own reputations and don’t fancy getting them trashed in public by their own customer, every time said customer has a bad day at the office!
The rules IIRC say that Renault would have to supply and there (was) a principle of obligation to supply engines agreed by all manufacturers with a cost cap of €12M (it was for 2017) with no difference in supply to customer teams or engine modes.Well, actually I saw it an hour ago but have only just stopped laughing about it!
Presumably the only way forward is for Mateschitz to buy the assets from Honda and continue to run the engine program as Red Bull - because it’s either that or go grovelling back to Abiteboul and be prepared to pay top dollar for engine supply, and neither Marko nor Horner seem like the kind of guy to grovel anywhere.
Mercedes and Ferrari aren’t going to touch the Red Bullies with a barge pole, they have their own reputations and don’t fancy getting them trashed in public by their own customer, every time said customer has a bad day at the office!
Could be hard times for F1.
Say Red bull + A.T pack up, Red Bull have been an asset to F1 in recent years IMO, they have been the one team in the last decade you could depend on to get it somewhat right and provide a headache for others at the sharp end.
Then we have talk of Mercedes pulling the team out also!
I suppose we have the prospect of daddy mazepin buying his son a team because he couldn’t land in one on merit.
Say Red bull + A.T pack up, Red Bull have been an asset to F1 in recent years IMO, they have been the one team in the last decade you could depend on to get it somewhat right and provide a headache for others at the sharp end.
Then we have talk of Mercedes pulling the team out also!
I suppose we have the prospect of daddy mazepin buying his son a team because he couldn’t land in one on merit.
Leithen said:
Agreed.
It's the 2026 regs where it get interesting.
If I were Domenicali and Brawn, I'd get Andy Cowell, Gordon Murray, Ferrari and Cosworth together to produce a spec that is entirely non-automotive manufacturer reliant.
I'd favour a relatively simple and open spec that recognises that the contact patch is already an entirely controlled item.
They’re all going to get their thinking caps on for the 2026 engine regs, that’s for sure. It's the 2026 regs where it get interesting.
If I were Domenicali and Brawn, I'd get Andy Cowell, Gordon Murray, Ferrari and Cosworth together to produce a spec that is entirely non-automotive manufacturer reliant.
I'd favour a relatively simple and open spec that recognises that the contact patch is already an entirely controlled item.
Anything with a couple of billion dollars and half a dozen years as a barrier to entry is quickly going to leave the grid with at most two suppliers.
The engine formula needs to be simple enough that a company like Cosworth or Judd could pick it up, and make a competitive powertrain with a year or two’s development and £100m or so of investment.
usn90 said:
Could be hard times for F1.
Say Red bull + A.T pack up, Red Bull have been an asset to F1 in recent years IMO, they have been the one team in the last decade you could depend on to get it somewhat right and provide a headache for others at the sharp end.
Then we have talk of Mercedes pulling the team out also!
I suppose we have the prospect of daddy mazepin buying his son a team because he couldn’t land in one on merit.
I would say McLaren, Renault and probably Racing Point are moving forward at a fairly decent rate now, next year should see them get closer to Red Bull, it's really only Max that is keeping them ahead of the pack consistently.Say Red bull + A.T pack up, Red Bull have been an asset to F1 in recent years IMO, they have been the one team in the last decade you could depend on to get it somewhat right and provide a headache for others at the sharp end.
Then we have talk of Mercedes pulling the team out also!
I suppose we have the prospect of daddy mazepin buying his son a team because he couldn’t land in one on merit.
2022 is going to either bring a massive gap with one team, or give us a close race, history suggests one team will be miles ahead.
Red Bull paid the price for all the max luv.
when they won it was because of his herculean efforts and they never stopped stroking his ego.
And what an ego. At least Alonso had won 2x WDC before earning that rep.
What if Max leaves? Its too risky having all the eggs in one basket.
Its too serious to run an apprenticeship in 75%-100% of the cars under the red bull banner.
The young driver program started when they were anonymous midfielders not expecting to do much so early. Then 4x drivers titles made them think it was because of that rather than best engine and chassis for those years.
when they won it was because of his herculean efforts and they never stopped stroking his ego.
And what an ego. At least Alonso had won 2x WDC before earning that rep.
What if Max leaves? Its too risky having all the eggs in one basket.
Its too serious to run an apprenticeship in 75%-100% of the cars under the red bull banner.
The young driver program started when they were anonymous midfielders not expecting to do much so early. Then 4x drivers titles made them think it was because of that rather than best engine and chassis for those years.
usn90 said:
Could be hard times for F1.
Say Red bull + A.T pack up, Red Bull have been an asset to F1 in recent years IMO, they have been the one team in the last decade you could depend on to get it somewhat right and provide a headache for others at the sharp end.
Then we have talk of Mercedes pulling the team out also!
I suppose we have the prospect of daddy mazepin buying his son a team because he couldn’t land in one on merit.
The penalties of pulling out will be significant.Say Red bull + A.T pack up, Red Bull have been an asset to F1 in recent years IMO, they have been the one team in the last decade you could depend on to get it somewhat right and provide a headache for others at the sharp end.
Then we have talk of Mercedes pulling the team out also!
I suppose we have the prospect of daddy mazepin buying his son a team because he couldn’t land in one on merit.
Well I’m glad I don’t have to make the decisions on the direction F1 takes, as it must be an absolute headache for those involved, The fact it’s “the pinnacle of motorsport” is its own demise
You can’t slow the cars down too much to improve the overtaking without bringing the formulas pace closer to that of the lower formulas, same thing with the brakes.
You can’t slow the cars down too much to improve the overtaking without bringing the formulas pace closer to that of the lower formulas, same thing with the brakes.
bolidemichael said:
Concerning Cosworth, they just finished developing the lightest, most powerful and advanced V12 for Gordon Murray's T50; should synthetic fuels become a viable tech, then it is entirely feasible that we can enjoy the spectacle of ICE powered racing for a new generation.
There's a lot more fuss recently about synthetic fuels, it seems that development is happening at a pretty rapid rate. Why it's taken this long for it to happen who knows... BMR said:
Remember didn’t everyone really question why Ricciardo would want to leave RB. It seems he’s really landed on his feet heading to McLaren soon.
Even at the time I knew it was the right decision for him, Max had started to consistently outshine Danny, it was only going to get worse and before you know it, it would have been a seb and mark scenario.Honda leaving F1 and only a handful of engine suppliers and works teams probes F1 engines are too complicated and expensive.
Ironically Renault and Mercedes are in F1 but I never associate any of their road cars with sports or super cars like Ferrari.
You wonder why Renault even bother because they only make boring family cars or hot hatches. I think most of the general public would be surprised to hear Renault are involved in F1.
F1 needs to change radically with traditional tracks, less bonkers engines that have no connection to the combustion engine in road cars and loose power steering so the downforce is limited to the skinny arms of the teenagers driving the cars now.
Ironically Renault and Mercedes are in F1 but I never associate any of their road cars with sports or super cars like Ferrari.
You wonder why Renault even bother because they only make boring family cars or hot hatches. I think most of the general public would be surprised to hear Renault are involved in F1.
F1 needs to change radically with traditional tracks, less bonkers engines that have no connection to the combustion engine in road cars and loose power steering so the downforce is limited to the skinny arms of the teenagers driving the cars now.
TheDeuce said:
Current EV cell density needs to increase 3 fold. In 5 years semi affordable solid state cells should achieve 2x current density... And as all tech can be expected at some point to improve further to the point at which cells can match the energy density of fuel.
There remain some tricky hurdles and question marks over material supply however. Any current predictions of timescale for the tech should considered guesstimates.
The tech will get there and will change our world very rapidly. At some point.
FE wil overtake F1 when an EV is able to run an F1 distance at F1 speed - that’s still a decade or more of battery tech development away. Maybe they’ll be able to swap out battery packs in a few seconds as F1 used to refuel, but the tipping point is way further down the line than those who say F1 is dead are thinking. There remain some tricky hurdles and question marks over material supply however. Any current predictions of timescale for the tech should considered guesstimates.
The tech will get there and will change our world very rapidly. At some point.
It’s probably the beginning of the end or the beginning of the new start.
Clearly many if not all manufacturers can’t justify the costs at this covid time. With covid here for at least the next few years it’s clearly going to hit car sales for a while.
Petrol driven race cars are fast becoming a thing of the past.
Race tracks are going to struggle for sometime yet with a lack of spectators.
Covid will impact sponsorship, TV deals etc
So EV transition might speed up.
Clearly many if not all manufacturers can’t justify the costs at this covid time. With covid here for at least the next few years it’s clearly going to hit car sales for a while.
Petrol driven race cars are fast becoming a thing of the past.
Race tracks are going to struggle for sometime yet with a lack of spectators.
Covid will impact sponsorship, TV deals etc
So EV transition might speed up.
vaud said:
The rules IIRC say that Renault would have to supply and there (was) a principle of obligation to supply engines agreed by all manufacturers with a cost cap of €12M (it was for 2017) with no difference in supply to customer teams or engine modes.
Indeed, although that price seems low unless it’s per power unit supplied. Renault would take the maximum cash possible from the deal, then (as someone suggested upthread) go out of their way to make their own car (and engine design) as far away as possible in philosophy from the Red Bull in terms of packaging and airflow. ash73 said:
TheDeuce said:
Electric is the future, and the only future for F1. The problem is that presently the cell technology is nowhere near suitable for F1 and almost certainly won't be for at least 5 years...
What about putting wireless charging inductors in the track, so the cars only need a small battery?F1 Scalextric!
ash73 said:
TheDeuce said:
ash73 said:
TheDeuce said:
Electric is the future, and the only future for F1. The problem is that presently the cell technology is nowhere near suitable for F1 and almost certainly won't be for at least 5 years...
What about putting wireless charging inductors in the track, so the cars only need a small battery?F1 Scalextric!
https://youtu.be/OI_HFnNTfyU?t=945
Every circuit would need its own nuclear power station.
Bradgate said:
From the perspective of global car manufacturers planning for a zero-emission world, F1 currently represents the technology of the past, and FE represents the technology of the future.
F1, therefore, has a problem. It needs to ask itself what ‘the pinnacle of motorsport’ will mean in the 2030s and beyond. If that means working with manufacturers, the future can only be electric. If that means F1 without manufacturers, how will it develop its own power trains?
The obvious solution is that FE is used as a development series for electric racing, and that when the technology is ready to take over from fossil, FE & F1 merge into one series, with manufacturer support.
This.F1, therefore, has a problem. It needs to ask itself what ‘the pinnacle of motorsport’ will mean in the 2030s and beyond. If that means working with manufacturers, the future can only be electric. If that means F1 without manufacturers, how will it develop its own power trains?
The obvious solution is that FE is used as a development series for electric racing, and that when the technology is ready to take over from fossil, FE & F1 merge into one series, with manufacturer support.
FE as it currently stands will just be renamed F1 at some point in the future......and almost certainly before 2030, so 2026 would seem the most likely as it stands.
If Renault question their continued participation after this Honda announcement, then maybe sooner than that...!!
I'm not in any way surprised Honda have done this, they do have plenty of form for doing this after all.
BCE probably saw the end of F1 in his tea leaves years ago and that's why he sold out when he did.
I started weening myself off F1 a couple of years ago after the hybrid era started, as the epitaph of F1 as a ICE powered motorsport was being written.
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