Williams F1

[TheDeuce]

Car-Matt said:

Got to the end of the race when the Haas was still running. That’s on merit in my book

The Haas has issues the Williams didn’t so that’s props to Williams. Small victories matter.

I suppose it's a victory in as much as it's the most they can aim for. I don't know if it's positive to have such a tiny victory to celebrate, or just very depressing that such a result now counts as a victory for Williams.

On balance, I think beating a car that has issues in racing terms is to be expected eventually, no matter how shocking your own car is. HAAS had issues today that Williams did not, which sounds like Williams won in terms of preparation and reliability etc.. But factor back in that their car is by design a permanent issue every race, and it's not really a win for them at all.

[sgtBerbatov]

The Vambo said:

Car-Matt said:

Russell is besting a Haas on merit, Bob K a minute behind him

Bob K, sounds like a used car salesman.

Let's call out his name,
Bobby K, Bobby K.
Bobby K the roadblock,
Bobby K, Bobby K

[Lebo44]

sgtBerbatov said:

Bobby K the roadblock,

Actually this was his role after changing tyres - to block/slow down Magnussen for as long as possible . But it lasted for just a half of a lap

[n3il123]

I think the quotes from the two drivers says quite a bit about their attitudes tbh

George Russell said:

I managed to fight the Toro Rosso's and the Haas at the beginning, hold them up for a bit and I managed to hold off Magnussen in the closing stages. We're still a long way off, but there's a few positives in there. Those opening laps were good. I managed to take Robert and Daniil Kvyat at once, which was surprising and nice. I was pushing absolutely flat out every single lap, and I'm glad it was noticed. We need to be patient now and wait for some more downforce to come to the car.

Robert Kubica said:

It was a difficult race. The pace was not there. I gained a few positions on the opening lap, but then the handling was very bad. I tried to defend but it was so difficult to keep the cars behind. I am lacking overall grip and in these conditions when it is hot, when there is a lot of overheating and the tyres are suffering a lot, I am just sliding even more.

[Lebo44]

I think the quotes from the two teams says quite a bit about their attitudes tbh

Mercedes said:

We knew it would be a difficult race for us. In the end it was even worse than we expected. We knew it was our Achilles' heel and we are carrying the problem since the beginning of the season. It was painful to watch, cruising, not being able to defend or attack.

Williams said:

Thanks to another excellent effort from our crew, George’s pitstop was much better than Kvyat’s and we almost emerged ahead. The whole team did a good job of managing the car in the demanding conditions of Austria and again get two cars home.

[Bullitt Five-Oh]

n3il123 said:

I think the quotes from the two drivers says quite a bit about their attitudes tbh

George Russell said:

I managed to fight the Toro Rosso's and the Haas at the beginning, hold them up for a bit and I managed to hold off Magnussen in the closing stages. We're still a long way off, but there's a few positives in there. Those opening laps were good. I managed to take Robert and Daniil Kvyat at once, which was surprising and nice. I was pushing absolutely flat out every single lap, and I'm glad it was noticed. We need to be patient now and wait for some more downforce to come to the car.

Robert Kubica said:

It was a difficult race. The pace was not there. I gained a few positions on the opening lap, but then the handling was very bad. I tried to defend but it was so difficult to keep the cars behind. I am lacking overall grip and in these conditions when it is hot, when there is a lot of overheating and the tyres are suffering a lot, I am just sliding even more.

I see the age old battle between honesty and political correctness.

[Deesee]

Here’s our Bobby K, slipping back to last, grid start, in four laps

https://streamable.com/9hos7

[Piginapoke]

Deesee said:

Here’s our Bobby K, slipping back to last, grid start, in four laps

https://streamable.com/9hos7

But does it really matter?

Williams at last have a driver to maximise the car in GR, so they know where they are, as depressing as that is. Even if Lewis was driving for the team this year, they would score no points.

If RK is providing good car feedback (and it does slowly look to be improving) and helping to set the development priorities out for next year, then he is doing his job.

[Lebo44]

Deesee said:

Here’s our Bobby K, slipping back to last, grid start, in four laps

https://streamable.com/9hos7

The positive side is that he has very solid race starts and manages to gain 2-3 positions before losing tempo.

[Deesee]

Piginapoke said:

Deesee said:

Here’s our Bobby K, slipping back to last, grid start, in four laps

https://streamable.com/9hos7

But does it really matter?

Williams at last have a driver to maximise the car in GR, so they know where they are, as depressing as that is. Even if Lewis was driving for the team this year, they would score no points.

If RK is providing good car feedback (and it does slowly look to be improving) and helping to set the development priorities out for next year, then he is doing his job.

Don’t agree with that, Williams would do better with 2x GR for development than 2x RK.

[Deesee]

Lebo44 said:

Deesee said:

Here’s our Bobby K, slipping back to last, grid start, in four laps

https://streamable.com/9hos7

The positive side is that he has very solid race starts and manages to gain 2-3 positions before losing tempo.

Has no tempo as no race pace anymore, it’s a GP, 300 + km... that’s how we measure drivers..

[skwdenyer]

Deesee said:

Here’s our Bobby K, slipping back to last, grid start, in four laps

https://streamable.com/9hos7

OK, so...

Lap 1:

Lots of wheelspin out of T2, meaning he loses a place on the run up to T3, but he's pretty racy on the brakes into T3, before having real trouble keeping it straight under braking for T4 and then being very clearly traction-limited coming through T4. Sideways again on the way into T5 with significant stability issues, yet slow at the same time (loses a place), but then keeps it together and loses little time up to T6. Video chops up until near the end of the lap, when he's asked to go into Race mode.

Lap 2:

Lots of wheelspin and instability through T2, meaning he loses a place to the McLaren on the drag up to T3. By T4 he's complaining of lack of power (are these transmissions delayed on this feed?). By the start/finish straight, he's told that the power defecit was "because the pack was low; we're on the way back up now."

Lap 3:

Small lockup on the way into T2, then poor traction on the way out leaves him exposed to a pass on the inside into T3.

Lap 4:

With DRS open on the start/finish straight, he's faster into T1, but again locks up, is wide of the apex, and has terrible traction on the way out (which is uphill). He's beaten into T3 by George, who actually has no more apex speed at T3 than him but *far* better traction on the way out - just see how far behind Robert drops on the run out of T3.

It is very strange. In steady state stuff, Robert's holding his own. Putting aside for one moment the "he's just crap" argument, could we be seeing a difference between race engineers? Is there something, say, about the way the diff is set up on Robert's car that is out of whack, or throttle mapping (linearity, etc.) or something?

Before anyone states the obvious, of course team-mates can be this far apart - just look at Verstappen vs Gasley - and I haven't analysed that pairing in any great depth.

Incidentally, the streamable quali link for Austria is the first run; the second run is here https://streamable.com/jt903 - the final gap was 3/10ths. That second link has the speed trap times; Robert was a consistent 3-5 kph down on George.

Does anyone know where I can find detailed telemetry such as that shown at https://unendinginsight.wordpress.com/2019/06/17/2... for other drivers / races? That is fascinating. Consider this from Spain:

. Perez was 1.2 seconds faster, but notably in the slow corners Perez was actually slower than Russell at corner entry. Perez clearly short-shifts (presumably for best traction) coming out of the tight stuff, for instance, and does well. We can also clearly see Perez has a distinctive style of applying brake before releasing the throttle.

But going back to Robert, the options seem to be:

- he's rubbish right now; or
- there's something different about his car (diff, suspension, aero, whatever); or
- he's rubbish at setting up the car; or
- his race engineer isn't as good as George's

Or maybe some combination of the above. My instinct is some combination of all of these is most likely, but there simply aren't enough testing miles (these days) to work it all out.

[F1GTRUeno]

I think Russell is actually very handy and probably not the team mate RK needed.

Be very interesting to see if Merc can land him in a better seat next season, might be up there with Norris.

[TheDeuce]

skwdenyer said:

OK, so...

Lap 1:

Lots of wheelspin out of T2, meaning he loses a place on the run up to T3, but he's pretty racy on the brakes into T3, before having real trouble keeping it straight under braking for T4 and then being very clearly traction-limited coming through T4. Sideways again on the way into T5 with significant stability issues, yet slow at the same time (loses a place), but then keeps it together and loses little time up to T6. Video chops up until near the end of the lap, when he's asked to go into Race mode.

Lap 2:

Lots of wheelspin and instability through T2, meaning he loses a place to the McLaren on the drag up to T3. By T4 he's complaining of lack of power (are these transmissions delayed on this feed?). By the start/finish straight, he's told that the power defecit was "because the pack was low; we're on the way back up now."

Lap 3:

Small lockup on the way into T2, then poor traction on the way out leaves him exposed to a pass on the inside into T3.

Lap 4:

With DRS open on the start/finish straight, he's faster into T1, but again locks up, is wide of the apex, and has terrible traction on the way out (which is uphill). He's beaten into T3 by George, who actually has no more apex speed at T3 than him but *far* better traction on the way out - just see how far behind Robert drops on the run out of T3.

It is very strange. In steady state stuff, Robert's holding his own. Putting aside for one moment the "he's just crap" argument, could we be seeing a difference between race engineers? Is there something, say, about the way the diff is set up on Robert's car that is out of whack, or throttle mapping (linearity, etc.) or something?

Before anyone states the obvious, of course team-mates can be this far apart - just look at Verstappen vs Gasley - and I haven't analysed that pairing in any great depth.

Incidentally, the streamable quali link for Austria is the first run; the second run is here https://streamable.com/jt903 - the final gap was 3/10ths. That second link has the speed trap times; Robert was a consistent 3-5 kph down on George.

Does anyone know where I can find detailed telemetry such as that shown at https://unendinginsight.wordpress.com/2019/06/17/2... for other drivers / races? That is fascinating. Consider this from Spain:

. Perez was 1.2 seconds faster, but notably in the slow corners Perez was actually slower than Russell at corner entry. Perez clearly short-shifts (presumably for best traction) coming out of the tight stuff, for instance, and does well. We can also clearly see Perez has a distinctive style of applying brake before releasing the throttle.

But going back to Robert, the options seem to be:

- he's rubbish right now; or
- there's something different about his car (diff, suspension, aero, whatever); or
- he's rubbish at setting up the car; or
- his race engineer isn't as good as George's

Or maybe some combination of the above. My instinct is some combination of all of these is most likely, but there simply aren't enough testing miles (these days) to work it all out.

I think if analysed most other drivers laps in such detail you would find as many minor incidents to flag up for why they aren't all basically Lewis Hamilton (or whoever each person who reads this may consider the finest current driver...). Perfect opening laps are not common, lots of traction and braking issues.

The engineers are different skill levels? I suppose they must be, few things in life are equal but they will talk to each other, even if not directly but when discussing observations in team-wide meetings - race engineers are not locked in battle in quite the same way team mates are. The overriding pressure on the engineers is to get Williams backside off the back row, so I don't believe they will be hiding anything very major from one another. That wouldn't be good for Williams overall effort and in any case, that's not how Williams have tended to act through their history.

I think you're right to summise it's likely a combination of many factors. We can't know which factors for sure, but some seem more likely to weigh heavier on the end result than others. I think quite a lot of it has to do with his own performance as a driver - I accept he may also as a result get a slightly less favourable treatment from the garage - let's be honest, we know parts are forever in short supply at Williams and the newer stuff will get bolted to their faster drivers car by default. Being a second priority driver probably is worth a couple of tenths a lap one way or another. The rest of the delta? I don't think it's a stretch to attribute that to age/disability/time out of F1.

What would you attribute to those last three disadvantages? Say we took Max out of the sport for 8 years, replicated the arm injury and fix... How would he do if sat next to to his future, younger, less disabled equivalent in the RB 2027 car? It would have to make a difference to pace surely?

Edited by TheDeuce on Tuesday 2nd July 00:03

[skwdenyer]

TheDeuce said:

I think if analysed most other drivers laps in such detail you would find as many minor incidents to flag up for why they aren't all basically Lewis Hamilton (or whoever each person who reads this may consider the finest current driver...). Perfect opening laps are not common, lots of traction and braking issues.

The engineers are different skill levels? I suppose they must be, few things in life are equal but they will talk to each other, even if not directly but when discussing observations in team-wide meetings - race engineers are not locked in battle in quite the same way team mates are. The overriding pressure on the engineers is to get Williams backside off the back row, so I don't believe they will be hiding anything very major from one another. That wouldn't be good for Williams overall effort and in any case, that's not how Williams have tended to act through their history.

I think you're right to summise it's likely a combination of many factors. We can't know which factors for sure, but some seem more likely to weigh heavier on the end result than others. I think quite a lot of it has to do with his own performance as a driver - I accept he may also as a result get a slightly less favourable treatment from the garage - let's be honest, we know parts are forever in short supply at Williams and the newer stuff will get bolted to their faster drivers car by default. Being a second priority driver probably is worth a couple of tenths a lap one way or another. The rest of the delta? I don't think it's a stretch to attribute that to age/disability/time out of F1.

What would you attribute to those last three disadvantages? Say we took Max out of the sport for 8 years, replicated the arm injury and fix... How would he do if sat next to to his future, younger, less disabled equivalent in the RB 2027 car? It would have to make a difference to pace surely?

Edited by TheDeuce on Tuesday 2nd July 00:03

For me I think the thing that stands out the most for me is that when I compare Robert of old to Robert now, I find surprisingly little difference - certainly in lines, entry / exit speeds, etc. It just seems like he hasn't adapted to the current state of the art, yet at the same time I struggle to imagine somebody capable of getting to F1 in the first place would be unable to adapt.

And that perhaps takes us to the injury. Does it hold him back per se? Perhaps not. But does it get in the way of learning, adapting? Does it up the workload in the cockpit by the few % necessary to prevent him from learning and adapting to the car? Does it prevent him from fiddling with the brake bias or

I can imagine that it might do.

The boy can clearly still drive. His results in WRC2, and his speed in WRC, point to that - there actually aren't many circuit racers who've done very well at rallying - I guess Räikkönen and before that Reuteman with his one-off drives? Who else in the modern era? And rallying usually requires a sight more arm twirling than F1 - although as I've pointed out before he adapted a very particular style with minimum sideways action.

But that last few %, and the modern tech? When people like Lando and Max have grown up not only racing, but with their own simulators at home (see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jBK1TOYBfA for instance), is Robert perhaps just slightly out of time and struggling to play catch-up?

[TheDeuce]

skwdenyer said:

For me I think the thing that stands out the most for me is that when I compare Robert of old to Robert now, I find surprisingly little difference - certainly in lines, entry / exit speeds, etc. It just seems like he hasn't adapted to the current state of the art, yet at the same time I struggle to imagine somebody capable of getting to F1 in the first place would be unable to adapt.

And that perhaps takes us to the injury. Does it hold him back per se? Perhaps not. But does it get in the way of learning, adapting? Does it up the workload in the cockpit by the few % necessary to prevent him from learning and adapting to the car? Does it prevent him from fiddling with the brake bias or

I can imagine that it might do.

The boy can clearly still drive. His results in WRC2, and his speed in WRC, point to that - there actually aren't many circuit racers who've done very well at rallying - I guess Räikkönen and before that Reuteman with his one-off drives? Who else in the modern era? And rallying usually requires a sight more arm twirling than F1 - although as I've pointed out before he adapted a very particular style with minimum sideways action.

But that last few %, and the modern tech? When people like Lando and Max have grown up not only racing, but with their own simulators at home (see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jBK1TOYBfA for instance), is Robert perhaps just slightly out of time and struggling to play catch-up?

You know what? I think we agree at last. He's a driving talent for sure, and that skill doesn't just disappear. But yes, somewhere between his arm and his vintage and time out of F1 a big chunk of his pace deficit can probably be explained.

I think we would need him to post on the forums himself to attribute any more detail as to what precisely out of that mix he feels is the biggest issue.

The above might not account for the full second(ish) delta, but if it accounts for only half of it, the rest could be reasonably explained by the subsequent lack of confidence/positivity from not being able to beat GR, and also the reality that Williams are resource limited and if they have to decide which driver gets a solitary new part for their car, it's bound to be the quickest...

[anonymous-user]

F1 is a results business. Kubica is consistently much slower than his rookie teammate. The writing is on the wall, subject to how much Williams need his sponsorship.

[Lebo44]

skwdenyer said:

. Perez was 1.2 seconds faster, but notably in the slow corners Perez was actually slower than Russell at corner entry. Perez clearly short-shifts (presumably for best traction) coming out of the tight stuff, for instance, and does well. We can also clearly see Perez has a distinctive style of applying brake before releasing the throttle.
.

Do you know how reliable such telemetry available on the net is? I have heard that usually it's just taken from recorded onboards streams, frame by frame and rescaled manually based on x-axis (distance). Once I heard this I stopped looking at this as a reliable comparison.

Edited by Lebo44 on Tuesday 2nd July 09:25

[Lebo44]

skwdenyer said:

- he's rubbish right now a little bit rust, but not much (0.3 sec behind Russell, as in most qualification sessions)
- there's something different about his car (diff, suspension, aero, whatever); (certainly, additional 0.7 sec behind Russell during races)
- he's rubbish at setting up the car; or definitely not, he's always been a techie
- has weak tyre management I doubt it from the same reason as above. I believe he should have got used to them after few races
- his race engineer isn't as good as George's his side of garage made some strange decisions but there were many times he praised his engineers in the interviews

My opinions above. Added point about tyres.

[Lebo44]

George Russell, March 2019
"Williams has a “fundamental” problem with its FW42 that will take months to address"

Dave Robson, June 2019
"2020 Williams will be an evolution of this year's car. I don't think there is anything fundamentally wrong with the car. Our development rate is simply not enough."

They changed their mind or just fixed this fundamental problem?