Official 2021 Styrian and Austrian GP thread **SPOILERS**
Discussion
thegreenhell said:
F2 success is not a great indicator of future F1 success, as different drivers mature at different rates and in different series.
Going back to the start of F3000 in 1985, there have been 36 different champions of F3000/GP2/F2. Only eight of those champions have so far gone on to win even a single F1 race, and two have become F1 champions.
Of the other drivers who raced in those series but weren't champions, ten have so far gone on to win F1 races and two have become F1 champions despite relatively mediocre junior results.
You certainly point up some interesting correlations. But could it not equally be said that which F1 team each driver ended up at had more of a bearing on whether they won F1 races?Going back to the start of F3000 in 1985, there have been 36 different champions of F3000/GP2/F2. Only eight of those champions have so far gone on to win even a single F1 race, and two have become F1 champions.
Of the other drivers who raced in those series but weren't champions, ten have so far gone on to win F1 races and two have become F1 champions despite relatively mediocre junior results.
skwdenyer said:
thegreenhell said:
F2 success is not a great indicator of future F1 success, as different drivers mature at different rates and in different series.
Going back to the start of F3000 in 1985, there have been 36 different champions of F3000/GP2/F2. Only eight of those champions have so far gone on to win even a single F1 race, and two have become F1 champions.
Of the other drivers who raced in those series but weren't champions, ten have so far gone on to win F1 races and two have become F1 champions despite relatively mediocre junior results.
You certainly point up some interesting correlations. But could it not equally be said that which F1 team each driver ended up at had more of a bearing on whether they won F1 races?Going back to the start of F3000 in 1985, there have been 36 different champions of F3000/GP2/F2. Only eight of those champions have so far gone on to win even a single F1 race, and two have become F1 champions.
Of the other drivers who raced in those series but weren't champions, ten have so far gone on to win F1 races and two have become F1 champions despite relatively mediocre junior results.
There have also been some drivers that have done great in F2 but simply haven't had the extra capacity to continue that performance in F1.
For an F2 driver to continue to look awesome in F1, they need to have that capacity themselves, and be in the right team at the right time to at least allow them to put in a respectable performance and then have a suitable seat available to ascend to at a top team, and still have the extra capacity as a driver to make that top seat count.
So I'd say.. The car sets the ultimate potential performance. Then, within that the drivers talent defines their own performance cap, and both those values are themselves dictated by luck/timing! And whilst a driver can influence their own 'luck' in endless ways, it's entirely possible that the best F1 driver ever born happened to end up at a top team the season they fell apart, and was never identified as the talent they were. Luck is a factor that can be depended upon to randomly elevate or undermine effort
TheDeuce said:
skwdenyer said:
thegreenhell said:
F2 success is not a great indicator of future F1 success, as different drivers mature at different rates and in different series.
Going back to the start of F3000 in 1985, there have been 36 different champions of F3000/GP2/F2. Only eight of those champions have so far gone on to win even a single F1 race, and two have become F1 champions.
Of the other drivers who raced in those series but weren't champions, ten have so far gone on to win F1 races and two have become F1 champions despite relatively mediocre junior results.
You certainly point up some interesting correlations. But could it not equally be said that which F1 team each driver ended up at had more of a bearing on whether they won F1 races?Going back to the start of F3000 in 1985, there have been 36 different champions of F3000/GP2/F2. Only eight of those champions have so far gone on to win even a single F1 race, and two have become F1 champions.
Of the other drivers who raced in those series but weren't champions, ten have so far gone on to win F1 races and two have become F1 champions despite relatively mediocre junior results.
There have also been some drivers that have done great in F2 but simply haven't had the extra capacity to continue that performance in F1.
For an F2 driver to continue to look awesome in F1, they need to have that capacity themselves, and be in the right team at the right time to at least allow them to put in a respectable performance and then have a suitable seat available to ascend to at a top team, and still have the extra capacity as a driver to make that top seat count.
So I'd say.. The car sets the ultimate potential performance. Then, within that the drivers talent defines their own performance cap, and both those values are themselves dictated by luck/timing! And whilst a driver can influence their own 'luck' in endless ways, it's entirely possible that the best F1 driver ever born happened to end up at a top team the season they fell apart, and was never identified as the talent they were. Luck is a factor that can be depended upon to randomly elevate or undermine effort
vaud said:
Adrian W said:
Does Hamilton want a team mate who is that competitive
I don’t think Lewis is bothered. I know Mercedes do not want another Rosberg:Hamilton situation as it was very damaging internally and took a vast amount of management time…
Hamilton has sent at least one motivational tweet to Norris in the past, when he lost a good qualifying lap because he went out of track limits. I think he just likes Lando and wants to see him do well. Or maybe he does that for all the young drivers. Someone has said in the past that Hamilton gives George time and help and advice when they're together.
He's also a 7 time world champion who has bounced back from being beaten by team mates in the past. He's not desperate about getting title 8. He wants it, for sure, but if the guy on the other side of the garage does a better job than him, it's not going to break him and in all the years we've been watching him racing, I've seen nothing to suggest that it's something he's scared of.
He's also repeatedly said that he wants to retire as a defeated champion. He wants to see the next big thing take the crown from him. That may well happen this year.
Edited by kiseca on Tuesday 6th July 08:15
Purely speculation obviously but I’d guess what he says and what he really wants are not the same thing and he is just trying to appear humble.
Apart from Rosberg, where he didn’t have to bounce back, has he ever had to deal with being beaten to the championship by a team mate? I know Button beat him but not to a championship.
Button and Rosberg were not rated as greats but they managed to keep him honest and beat him over years.
What if George comes in and does the same or worse, does he really want an upstart coming along at this point in his career and doing to him what Ric did to Vettel and have everyone saying all his wins were due to car advantage or crap team mates.
As for wanting or not hiding from a fight, we have seen that whenever he is seriously challenged it isn’t pretty.
I know from my own much much lower profile competition history that saying you don’t mind some competition and don’t mind losing is not true.
Apart from Rosberg, where he didn’t have to bounce back, has he ever had to deal with being beaten to the championship by a team mate? I know Button beat him but not to a championship.
Button and Rosberg were not rated as greats but they managed to keep him honest and beat him over years.
What if George comes in and does the same or worse, does he really want an upstart coming along at this point in his career and doing to him what Ric did to Vettel and have everyone saying all his wins were due to car advantage or crap team mates.
As for wanting or not hiding from a fight, we have seen that whenever he is seriously challenged it isn’t pretty.
I know from my own much much lower profile competition history that saying you don’t mind some competition and don’t mind losing is not true.
snotrag said:
RB Will said:
Purely speculation obviously but I’d guess what he says and what he really wants are not the same thing and he is just trying to appear humble.
Of course. He doesnt want a 'fight' with a team mate or another team. He wants it to appear like theres been a fight!
RB Will said:
Purely speculation obviously but I’d guess what he says and what he really wants are not the same thing and he is just trying to appear humble.
Apart from Rosberg, where he didn’t have to bounce back, has he ever had to deal with being beaten to the championship by a team mate? I know Button beat him but not to a championship.
Button and Rosberg were not rated as greats but they managed to keep him honest and beat him over years.
What if George comes in and does the same or worse, does he really want an upstart coming along at this point in his career and doing to him what Ric did to Vettel and have everyone saying all his wins were due to car advantage or crap team mates.
As for wanting or not hiding from a fight, we have seen that whenever he is seriously challenged it isn’t pretty.
I know from my own much much lower profile competition history that saying you don’t mind some competition and don’t mind losing is not true.
It's not just what he says, everything everyone who knows him, not least Toto, says, backs up what he says.Apart from Rosberg, where he didn’t have to bounce back, has he ever had to deal with being beaten to the championship by a team mate? I know Button beat him but not to a championship.
Button and Rosberg were not rated as greats but they managed to keep him honest and beat him over years.
What if George comes in and does the same or worse, does he really want an upstart coming along at this point in his career and doing to him what Ric did to Vettel and have everyone saying all his wins were due to car advantage or crap team mates.
As for wanting or not hiding from a fight, we have seen that whenever he is seriously challenged it isn’t pretty.
I know from my own much much lower profile competition history that saying you don’t mind some competition and don’t mind losing is not true.
With Rosberg he did bounce back, he won the next four titles on the trot. And whether or not it's for a championship, if you don't like being beaten by your team mate, that's going to be the same all the time. He's not scared of his team mates. If George comes in and beats him I reckon he'll be the first to congratulate the guy unless he feels George did something or other unsportsmanlike.
I think he cares less what we all say about his wins and his car advantage than we do. We only see his reputation and his legacy and achievements and so that's what we value. He knows what work he's put in behind the scenes to achieve what he has done, what effort he put in, the value of what he's done, the effort that he's put in when he gets beaten, and his perception of what he deserves and what rewards him will be completely different to ours.
exelero said:
snotrag said:
RB Will said:
Purely speculation obviously but I’d guess what he says and what he really wants are not the same thing and he is just trying to appear humble.
Of course. He doesnt want a 'fight' with a team mate or another team. He wants it to appear like theres been a fight!exelero said:
snotrag said:
RB Will said:
Purely speculation obviously but I’d guess what he says and what he really wants are not the same thing and he is just trying to appear humble.
Of course. He doesnt want a 'fight' with a team mate or another team. He wants it to appear like theres been a fight!The world has officially gone mad.
dunc_sx said:
GCH said:
Exactly. It makes no sense, and I am personally sick of hearing about russell as the second coming, who has done little to earn or deserve that mercedes seat.
We've actually had the rare opportunity to see them in the same car. To me it was clear Russell was better than Bottas.Dunc.
But he has shown that he is prone to occasional errors (who isn't) by crashing behind the safety car and causing an accident with Bottas.
To me Russell is faster, but his dependability under pressure in a championship situation is not tested, his hot headed reaction after the accident with Bottas was a mark against him in my book.
Bottas gives Mercedes a reliable number 2 and the added benefit of proven (to date) harmony in the team. Russell would give them more speed with a question mark over temperament/reliability. The question is which does Mercedes value more highly.
patmahe said:
dunc_sx said:
GCH said:
Exactly. It makes no sense, and I am personally sick of hearing about russell as the second coming, who has done little to earn or deserve that mercedes seat.
We've actually had the rare opportunity to see them in the same car. To me it was clear Russell was better than Bottas.Dunc.
But he has shown that he is prone to occasional errors (who isn't) by crashing behind the safety car and causing an accident with Bottas.
To me Russell is faster, but his dependability under pressure in a championship situation is not tested, his hot headed reaction after the accident with Bottas was a mark against him in my book.
Bottas gives Mercedes a reliable number 2 and the added benefit of proven (to date) harmony in the team. Russell would give them more speed with a question mark over temperament/reliability. The question is which does Mercedes value more highly.
Could it be possible that Russel will move to Mercedes and play second to Hamilton for the next two years (maybe less)?
It allows him to gain the experience of being in a front running car and Hamilton can coach/help him so that when he does finally retire Mercedes have got Russel as an experienced driver.
It allows him to gain the experience of being in a front running car and Hamilton can coach/help him so that when he does finally retire Mercedes have got Russel as an experienced driver.
Gtom said:
Could it be possible that Russel will move to Mercedes and play second to Hamilton for the next two years (maybe less)?
It allows him to gain the experience of being in a front running car and Hamilton can coach/help him so that when he does finally retire Mercedes have got Russel as an experienced driver.
There isn't a single F1 journalist in the paddock writing/saying anything other than Russell at Mercedes is all but certain for next year. It seems like it's beyond being just a possibility. It allows him to gain the experience of being in a front running car and Hamilton can coach/help him so that when he does finally retire Mercedes have got Russel as an experienced driver.
Gtom said:
Could it be possible that Russel will move to Mercedes and play second to Hamilton for the next two years (maybe less)?
It allows him to gain the experience of being in a front running car and Hamilton can coach/help him so that when he does finally retire Mercedes have got Russel as an experienced driver.
Weve seen this doesnt workIt allows him to gain the experience of being in a front running car and Hamilton can coach/help him so that when he does finally retire Mercedes have got Russel as an experienced driver.
Hamilton was signed as a number 2 to Alonso....that dynamic lasted a few races, same for Leclerc and Vettel.
Id be more than happy for Russell to go to merc....as a brit its win win which ever driver comes out on top, and with norris becoming a little star its great.
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