The Da Vinci of F1
Discussion
Steffan said:
I have to agree. That is why Stirling Moss is a hero of mine his Mille Milgia drive was quite outstanding. I also thought Jim Clark in a racing car was quite superbly smooth often driving very fragile Lotus creations. It was the inability of Chapman to equal Clark as a driver that caused him to employ the youngster in F1. Fangio remains the greatest driver I have seen overall. Masterly wet or dry.
Its different in recent decades because cars have better grip and handling with the exception being the turbo era - I have far greater respect for Prost's smoothness than Button's.Contemporary F1 rewards drivers more often on the aggressive side and the list of WDCs in recent decades reflects this.
Justaredbadge said:
This.
Clark.
If you're after a Picasso of the sport, G Villeneuve.
For me, Picasso was an acquired taste and I don't see that for Villeneuve. Was Gilles a bit of a dauber, is that what you are suggesting? A bit like Rolf Harris but without all the baggage he's got at the moment.Clark.
If you're after a Picasso of the sport, G Villeneuve.
Would Pabs, as his mates called him, bang wheels? It's an intriguing thought.
If we go onto other artists, who is the Noel Coward of the pitlane? That's a fun sport when waiting for the air display to start.
ash73 said:
RealSquirrels said:
i'd also like to nominate hamilton
Lewis would wear out his palette half way through the painting
Very good; LH hardly displays finesse with his car (compared to Federer's and Ronnie's finesse with a racquet / cue). Sadly, I'm not of an age to have seen Fangio / Clark / Moss / Collins / Hawthorn / Hill drive in person. But I've watched enough footage of them all to see that they all had an uncommon tactility and feel for driving fast that made it look easy, but with little effort.
And making it look easy with little effort is what the greats do.
If I had to pick one? Fangio.
Also, I know it's not F1, but can I also have a shout for Freddie Spencer? Unfussy, effortless, classy, and fast he won races at a canter whilst looking as if he was on an afternoon ride through the Cotswolds.
RealSquirrels said:
hamilton passing 2 cars at once through becketts, or past raikonnen under braking at monza, or when he confused felipe massa so much he fell off the track in malaysia.
The Becketts pass only worked without a MASSIVE accident because the other two got out of the way and went on the grass. It was a stupid, suicidal move.The Raikkonen pass was only achieved because Raikkonen had a problem with the car and was several seconds off the pace at the time. My granny could have passed him at that stage.
Don't recall the Massa pass, but if it wasn't 2008 (when Massa was world class) then passing him isn't really a major accomplishment.
Hamilton is good, no doubt, but I've never understood his reputation for being good at overtaking, as there is no evidence to support that.
tristancliffe said:
Hamilton is good, no doubt, but I've never understood his reputation for being good at overtaking, as there is no evidence to support that.
and there was me thinking this was real http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeAxsqQzI7wi didn't realise it was all just CGI
He spun. All the greats spin at the start of races. To give everyone else a chance.
He turned around in the path of other cars. All the greats endanger other drivers through an apparent lack of awareness. It makes them look lovable and vulnerable.
That meant he was behind drivers of debatable calibre, which are usually easier to pass.
He touched wheels, which was his fault. He's done that in F1 a lot too. Lack of spacial awareness, or doing it on purpose so as not to show how amazing he is and upset everyone else?
That driver was then baulked by another car, allowing Hamilton to get ahead easily. No skill there.
There were some good overtakes later, but most were simply outbraking a slower car or having more downforce.
GP2 is hardly known for having the best drivers.
He's not BAD at passing. But there is nothing in the video to suggest he is any better than most F1 drivers.
He turned around in the path of other cars. All the greats endanger other drivers through an apparent lack of awareness. It makes them look lovable and vulnerable.
That meant he was behind drivers of debatable calibre, which are usually easier to pass.
He touched wheels, which was his fault. He's done that in F1 a lot too. Lack of spacial awareness, or doing it on purpose so as not to show how amazing he is and upset everyone else?
That driver was then baulked by another car, allowing Hamilton to get ahead easily. No skill there.
There were some good overtakes later, but most were simply outbraking a slower car or having more downforce.
GP2 is hardly known for having the best drivers.
He's not BAD at passing. But there is nothing in the video to suggest he is any better than most F1 drivers.
tristancliffe said:
All the greats endanger other drivers through an apparent lack of awareness. It makes them look lovable and vulnerable.
There is the daredevil romanticism of race car drivers being made of The Right Stuff - driving/racing on the limit.Is it any wonder some drivers, even popular ones have been regarded as heroes/hero worshipped?
I would argue that this romanticism is the purity of racing and therefore an artform.
However I will agree that crazy and stupid is a very fine line and I for one would put Gilles in that regard.
tristancliffe said:
That driver was then baulked by another car, allowing Hamilton to get ahead easily. No skill there.
There were some good overtakes later, but most were simply outbraking a slower car or having more downforce
Quite frankly you can use that excuse for all most overtakes, even those regarded as great ones.There were some good overtakes later, but most were simply outbraking a slower car or having more downforce
entropy said:
I don't understand why Hamilton is getting criticised. I think some people are getting confused with greatness.
Lewis wears his heart on his sleeve and its reflected in his driving style. He's a great driver to watch.
Indeed. Is there any greater praise for an F1 driver.Lewis wears his heart on his sleeve and its reflected in his driving style. He's a great driver to watch.
This anti-fanboy criticism is nothing new. They said the same thing about Hunt, Mansell and others. Very strange.
Its not strictly related but I finally got my hands on 'Grand Prix' on blu ray and watched it over the weekend. I never saw any 60's F1 as I'm a 70's child but by god was the driving somewhat different to today!
I got into F1 mid 80's so saw Senna, Mansell, Prost, etc. Anyone who seriously thinks today's drivers have the sheer 'artistic' skill of yesteryear need to consider the ease of driving today's cars. I'm still just as much a follower of F1 today as back then but I really don't think any driver today could drive an 'old' car on the edge the way they used to. To flip the argument, I think any of the drivers from the 60's/ 70's/ 80's when they were in their prime could easily drive one of today's cars (if they were fit enough!) and be competitive if not superb.
I've seen the occasional performance in modern F1 that was good, or a great move here and there but I can't think of anyone other than early Schumacher who has impressed me with uniformly impressive car control and that artistic aloofness that great craftsmen have. Strangely I was never that impressed with Senna but I might have just been too young.
I got into F1 mid 80's so saw Senna, Mansell, Prost, etc. Anyone who seriously thinks today's drivers have the sheer 'artistic' skill of yesteryear need to consider the ease of driving today's cars. I'm still just as much a follower of F1 today as back then but I really don't think any driver today could drive an 'old' car on the edge the way they used to. To flip the argument, I think any of the drivers from the 60's/ 70's/ 80's when they were in their prime could easily drive one of today's cars (if they were fit enough!) and be competitive if not superb.
I've seen the occasional performance in modern F1 that was good, or a great move here and there but I can't think of anyone other than early Schumacher who has impressed me with uniformly impressive car control and that artistic aloofness that great craftsmen have. Strangely I was never that impressed with Senna but I might have just been too young.
Ben Dirs said:
When O'Sullivan plays snooker like this, the consensus is that he makes it look like he is playing another game. This is what the beautiful sportspeople do.
In the hands of Novak Djokovic, Rafael Nadal and Andy Murray, a tennis racquet is a rock hammer and a tennis court a quarry. In the hands of Roger Federer, a tennis racquet is a paint brush and a tennis court a canvas.
On his day, Tiger Woods plays golf better than anyone but he often makes it look as pleasing to the senses as shovelling coal.
What a complete load of twaddleIn the hands of Novak Djokovic, Rafael Nadal and Andy Murray, a tennis racquet is a rock hammer and a tennis court a quarry. In the hands of Roger Federer, a tennis racquet is a paint brush and a tennis court a canvas.
On his day, Tiger Woods plays golf better than anyone but he often makes it look as pleasing to the senses as shovelling coal.
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