Bernie at it again
Discussion
Even guys as fit as Senna used to wear straps on their helmets that helped support their necks, usually at circuits like at Interlargos, where they had long sustained load corners. It lead to Senna passing out after the race as the pain in his arms was so great. (the straps were tethered under the armpit so had the downside of restricting blood flow to the arms)
The 2017 rules may change things significantly, at the moment the current cars are capable of producing 3G through turn 3 at Barcelona, they predict 5.5G will be possible with the 2017 cars.
By comparison you could see 4G in a fast corner using a 1980 ground effect F1 car, so the current cars aren't that high load right now.
Next year might be a struggle for the jockey sized drivers and the likes of Hulkenberg may have an advantage.
The 2017 rules may change things significantly, at the moment the current cars are capable of producing 3G through turn 3 at Barcelona, they predict 5.5G will be possible with the 2017 cars.
By comparison you could see 4G in a fast corner using a 1980 ground effect F1 car, so the current cars aren't that high load right now.
Next year might be a struggle for the jockey sized drivers and the likes of Hulkenberg may have an advantage.
I spoke with two women drivers in the LMES. They were of the opinion that it would take an exceptional woman to compete in F1 and that it was unlikely that they'd ever be able to compete against the best F1 drivers. The reasoning was much along the lines that are on this thread, mainly physical limitations, but the statistics were a factor as well.
The fight for positions in the top teams is rather hot and we have NR and LH battling against one another within hundredths and occasionally thousandths of a second. Any minor defect in either will be a factor. If women are, in general, less strong than men they will be at a disadvantage in general.
If we draw Bell Curves for both we'll see that the catchment for both is hardly even. There will be exceptional female athletes of course. But the top F1 drivers are exceptional male athletes. They have an advantage.
Perhaps I'm wrong when I agree with female sports car drivers.
The fight for positions in the top teams is rather hot and we have NR and LH battling against one another within hundredths and occasionally thousandths of a second. Any minor defect in either will be a factor. If women are, in general, less strong than men they will be at a disadvantage in general.
If we draw Bell Curves for both we'll see that the catchment for both is hardly even. There will be exceptional female athletes of course. But the top F1 drivers are exceptional male athletes. They have an advantage.
Perhaps I'm wrong when I agree with female sports car drivers.
Just out of interest for the people saying that F1 is sexist because the cars are "too hard to drive", what would you have the teams and FIA do - set out rules that: cars are not to corner with more than 2G/acceleration to be limited to 0-100 in no less than 3 seconds/all controls to be powered and require no more than 10 Newtons of force to operate?
? Or am I totally missing what you mean by "sexist"?
? Or am I totally missing what you mean by "sexist"?
An excerpt from a chapter authored by the late Prof. Watkins in the book Clinical Neurosurgery:
I looked in to the men vs women thing a while ago when Bernie was saying about having a seperate Women's championship and I think I posted this here:
The two main aspects of driving an F1 (or a single seater) car that gender differences could have a role to play are:
1) Physical endurance (g-forces in corners, acceleration and braking, braking force generated by foot, assisted/non-assisted steering, heat etc)
2) Cognitive performance in the presence of physical stressors
On physical endurance when subject to high g-forces in context of fighter pilots, women are known to have worser cardiovascular function and I came across an USAF study that reports women do not improve with training whilst men do. ( link)
In that study, a max load of 5G is reported so applying the findings to F1, it seems that women are inherently at a disadvantage. But the G-forces experienced by the fighter pilot is a lot more complex, whereas the driving position in an F1 car means that the g-forces are more consistent in their directionality. So, may be women can perform better in an F1 car?
Braking force will be directly linked to muscle mass which favours males, but here peak force is not as helpful as being able to generate close to peak force for a sustained period. I can’t find the link but I remember reading that women are able to sustain closer to their peak force for longer (better endurance), whilst men can exert greater force. Steering effort also comes from overall upper body strength, and here women are at about 50% of the men (lower body strength is about 70% of men). Does it necessarily mean that women are at a disadvantage physically? Take Alonso for example, he's been said to be able to generate the most explosive braking force for his size. Is it necessarily an advantage in out braking manoeuvres? I don't think so.
Whilst women may end up working at a higher percentage of their exercise capacity compared to men, does it necessarily affect their cognitive performance? Another study found that exposure to high-g environment actually results in better retention of oxygen in the cerebral cortex in females-important for cognitive function ( link). However, the USAF study reported that women did worse in the combat simulations.
The Prof. Watkins chapter was published in 2006 and he's quoting 4G as the max experienced by the F1 driver. Possibly post-1982, I think? He also mentions a lot spinal strains pre-1982 due to very stiff suspensions and high downforce. If and it's a very big if, the quoted 5.5G is an accurate simulation for the 2017 cars, it will be an unprecedented level of g-force.
Prof. Watkins said:
The emotional and physical stresses experienced by a Formula One driver (...)include the muscular exercise involved in the physical effort of driving the car, and withstanding the G forces during acceleration and cornering, the latter up to 4G. Thus, the neck and shoulder muscles in a 4G corner would need to be controlling a head and helmet mass of approximately 6.5 kg, which would produce a load at 4G of 26 kg. Building up the shoulder and neck muscles by heavy exercise is an important part of training for race drivers. However, the most dramatic effects of the stresses are on the cardiovascular system. In addition to muscular physical effort and G forces, there are added burdens on the heart rate from vibration, thermal loads, and emotion, leading to pulse rates of up to 200 beats per minute (bpm). Figure [...] shows the effect of increasing speed on the pulse rate of two drivers (Villeneuve and Pironi) and also demonstrates individual differences arising from personality and training—Villeneuve being the cooler and more composed of the two. Figures (... ) show the stress of these two drivers in practice in Monaco, there being a drive on the heart on entering the circuit and relief on leaving it. Clearly, in Villeneuve’s case, an incident between laps in the motor home accelerated his pulse!
The effect of G forces and cornering on the heart rate are shown in [...], where, at Le Mans, Pironi’s pulse rate was at its lowest (155–135 bpm) on the fastest section of the circuit, the Mulsanne straight. Figure [...], at Fiorano, the acceleration of the pulse is clearly shown during cornering, although the G forces at the corners there did not exceed 2.9G. The effect of anxiety on heart rate when entering the circuit and at the start of a session at Le Mans is shown in Figure [...]. The effect of thermal load and increase in body temperature provides a further factor. In 1956, Ladell and Watkins showed that for a rise of each degree, the heart rate increases 25 beats during working. The need for heat acclimatization for races in hot climates is paramount, despite which, Senna, who ran in the heat of Brazil to acclimatize (8km, 16 km, and 24 km on successive days) reached a pulse rate of 190 bpm.
Villeneuve's heart rate while in the car and the motor home 'incident': The effect of G forces and cornering on the heart rate are shown in [...], where, at Le Mans, Pironi’s pulse rate was at its lowest (155–135 bpm) on the fastest section of the circuit, the Mulsanne straight. Figure [...], at Fiorano, the acceleration of the pulse is clearly shown during cornering, although the G forces at the corners there did not exceed 2.9G. The effect of anxiety on heart rate when entering the circuit and at the start of a session at Le Mans is shown in Figure [...]. The effect of thermal load and increase in body temperature provides a further factor. In 1956, Ladell and Watkins showed that for a rise of each degree, the heart rate increases 25 beats during working. The need for heat acclimatization for races in hot climates is paramount, despite which, Senna, who ran in the heat of Brazil to acclimatize (8km, 16 km, and 24 km on successive days) reached a pulse rate of 190 bpm.
I looked in to the men vs women thing a while ago when Bernie was saying about having a seperate Women's championship and I think I posted this here:
The two main aspects of driving an F1 (or a single seater) car that gender differences could have a role to play are:
1) Physical endurance (g-forces in corners, acceleration and braking, braking force generated by foot, assisted/non-assisted steering, heat etc)
2) Cognitive performance in the presence of physical stressors
On physical endurance when subject to high g-forces in context of fighter pilots, women are known to have worser cardiovascular function and I came across an USAF study that reports women do not improve with training whilst men do. ( link)
In that study, a max load of 5G is reported so applying the findings to F1, it seems that women are inherently at a disadvantage. But the G-forces experienced by the fighter pilot is a lot more complex, whereas the driving position in an F1 car means that the g-forces are more consistent in their directionality. So, may be women can perform better in an F1 car?
Braking force will be directly linked to muscle mass which favours males, but here peak force is not as helpful as being able to generate close to peak force for a sustained period. I can’t find the link but I remember reading that women are able to sustain closer to their peak force for longer (better endurance), whilst men can exert greater force. Steering effort also comes from overall upper body strength, and here women are at about 50% of the men (lower body strength is about 70% of men). Does it necessarily mean that women are at a disadvantage physically? Take Alonso for example, he's been said to be able to generate the most explosive braking force for his size. Is it necessarily an advantage in out braking manoeuvres? I don't think so.
Whilst women may end up working at a higher percentage of their exercise capacity compared to men, does it necessarily affect their cognitive performance? Another study found that exposure to high-g environment actually results in better retention of oxygen in the cerebral cortex in females-important for cognitive function ( link). However, the USAF study reported that women did worse in the combat simulations.
The Prof. Watkins chapter was published in 2006 and he's quoting 4G as the max experienced by the F1 driver. Possibly post-1982, I think? He also mentions a lot spinal strains pre-1982 due to very stiff suspensions and high downforce. If and it's a very big if, the quoted 5.5G is an accurate simulation for the 2017 cars, it will be an unprecedented level of g-force.
Derek Smith said:
I spoke with two women drivers in the LMES. They were of the opinion that it would take an exceptional woman to compete in F1 and that it was unlikely that they'd ever be able to compete against the best F1 drivers. The reasoning was much along the lines that are on this thread, mainly physical limitations, but the statistics were a factor as well.
The fight for positions in the top teams is rather hot and we have NR and LH battling against one another within hundredths and occasionally thousandths of a second. Any minor defect in either will be a factor. If women are, in general, less strong than men they will be at a disadvantage in general.
If we draw Bell Curves for both we'll see that the catchment for both is hardly even. There will be exceptional female athletes of course. But the top F1 drivers are exceptional male athletes. They have an advantage.
Perhaps I'm wrong when I agree with female sports car drivers.
I agree with this, but i don't think it makes formula 1 sexist (although i don't think that you implied that)The fight for positions in the top teams is rather hot and we have NR and LH battling against one another within hundredths and occasionally thousandths of a second. Any minor defect in either will be a factor. If women are, in general, less strong than men they will be at a disadvantage in general.
If we draw Bell Curves for both we'll see that the catchment for both is hardly even. There will be exceptional female athletes of course. But the top F1 drivers are exceptional male athletes. They have an advantage.
Perhaps I'm wrong when I agree with female sports car drivers.
The thing is (and you can call me sexist if you like, but its just a fact) men are better at (pretty much every) sport than women... Sport being played at a higher level is better to watch... therefore watching men play sport is better than women play sport.
This is purely down to physiological differences, men are stronger, faster, more powerful etc.
F1 should not be altered to make it easier for women to compete. They could try a women's formula, but if you look at viewing figures/interest in women's sport for most other sports, you will see that it does not compare to the same sport in males (again, mostly) so i suspect it will fail.
So my answer to anyone saying "its not fair" is that "life's not fair"
Whilst I appreciate the physical arguments, we have female fighter pilots including someone in the red arrows (2009, so not sure if she will still be flying with them)
If females can survive in a fighter pulling big G, then why can't they drive a F1 car? Yes, the Hawks are not as fast as the Eurofighter, but they will be capable of pulling large G
Agree with what someone else stated. The pool is just much smaller for female F1 drivers. More boys want to be an F1 drivers compared to girls. I'd say that isn't limited to F1. I'd be happy driving any vehicle in motorsport
If females can survive in a fighter pulling big G, then why can't they drive a F1 car? Yes, the Hawks are not as fast as the Eurofighter, but they will be capable of pulling large G
Agree with what someone else stated. The pool is just much smaller for female F1 drivers. More boys want to be an F1 drivers compared to girls. I'd say that isn't limited to F1. I'd be happy driving any vehicle in motorsport
Women are generally shorter than men so have less distance to their head from their heart (they also generally have less trunk as a percentage of body).
Hence for fighters they are actually at an advantage as most manoeuvres apply the g-force to the body vertically (head to toes). Thus g-induced loss of consciousness when the heart can't get the blood to the head - and hence the female advantage.
F1 car g-force is lateral ...
Hence for fighters they are actually at an advantage as most manoeuvres apply the g-force to the body vertically (head to toes). Thus g-induced loss of consciousness when the heart can't get the blood to the head - and hence the female advantage.
F1 car g-force is lateral ...
As previously stated by Murray walker.
If there was a women driver who could do what modern F1 drivers can do, the advertising industry would have a field day. The advertising would be worth an absolutely fortune to F1..........
Unfortunately there has not been one yet who can compete with the male drivers, and I would love to see a women come through and compete.
This is not sexism, its the truth.
All sports cannot be made suitable for male and femail.
The rules should not be changed to accommodate in either direction.
It would be just as wrong for men to be allowed to play in womens football matches, as this would just end up as all male teams again....
Madness !
Gadgit.
If there was a women driver who could do what modern F1 drivers can do, the advertising industry would have a field day. The advertising would be worth an absolutely fortune to F1..........
Unfortunately there has not been one yet who can compete with the male drivers, and I would love to see a women come through and compete.
This is not sexism, its the truth.
All sports cannot be made suitable for male and femail.
The rules should not be changed to accommodate in either direction.
It would be just as wrong for men to be allowed to play in womens football matches, as this would just end up as all male teams again....
Madness !
Gadgit.
Instead of starting a new thread, seeing as this one was still on the 1st page, Bernie gave an interview to ITV London News today saying how much he would "love" there to be an F1 race around the streets of central London and how he "looks forward" to speaking to the relevant parties to make it happen ASAP. He was also certain that they could come to a proper financial agreement that would allow it to happen.
He was also intent on pointing out that the timing of this announcement had no relevance whatsoever to the election of Sidiq Khan as the new Mayor of London. Yes Bernie, we all believe you
He was also intent on pointing out that the timing of this announcement had no relevance whatsoever to the election of Sidiq Khan as the new Mayor of London. Yes Bernie, we all believe you
Derek Smith said:
I'm not sure all women agree with that.
A few years ago when this subject raised its head there were a couple of females who said that F1 was sexist as the cars required great strength to drive, therefor prejudicing women who were generally weaker.
They may not agree but an F1 car is designed for a purpose if a driver (Male or Female) was not physically able to drive the car then they're not fit enough to do the job end of.A few years ago when this subject raised its head there were a couple of females who said that F1 was sexist as the cars required great strength to drive, therefor prejudicing women who were generally weaker.
The cars are easier to drive now but there are no women in F1 because they're not good enough that's it, there are sponsors lined up to pour cash their way.
Look at Danica Patrick in Nascar she has sponsors for fun & she's an average Nascar driver at best, if there was a woman that was good enough to drive an F1 car she'd have a drive.
Susie Wolff wasn't good enough Williams knew this that's why she didn't get regular Friday slots.
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