Discussion
I think we are overstating Lewis's calmer approach to driving. That's the right approach at present, but if the points gap were reversed I suspect we'd see the driving we miss...... it could become necessary this year - and I fully expect it next year.
I also think we're maybe being a bit harsh on Seb. The whole making sure the team is focused on him thing, and a bad year against Danny don't tell the whole story. He's put in some blinding drives this year alone... I think he's there or thereabouts with Lewis.
Am certainly enjoying the battle and this weekend sets the tone for the rest of the year.... on form Merc? Or blistering Ferrari? Hope for both !
I also think we're maybe being a bit harsh on Seb. The whole making sure the team is focused on him thing, and a bad year against Danny don't tell the whole story. He's put in some blinding drives this year alone... I think he's there or thereabouts with Lewis.
Am certainly enjoying the battle and this weekend sets the tone for the rest of the year.... on form Merc? Or blistering Ferrari? Hope for both !
glasgow mega snake said:
Sebastian vettel was beaten by Paul di Resta in F3. Around the same time, Lewis Hamilton, in his first year in F1, was beating his world champion team mate. Vettel is not on the same level as Hamilton. He knows it - he has vetoed Hamilton being his team mate in two different teams.
Can you remember the names of those who beat Lewis in his first two series of FR and his first series of F3?
There are several.
Hungrymc said:
I also think we're maybe being a bit harsh on Seb. The whole making sure the team is focused on him thing, and a bad year against Danny don't tell the whole story. He's put in some blinding drives this year alone... I think he's there or thereabouts with Lewis.
Agree about his season against Ricciardo, was just a bad season for him I think. A bit like 2011 was for Lewis. Happens sometimes.I think Seb and Lewis are pretty close, but Lewis has that undefinable quality that makes the true greats true greats... Senna and Schumacher had it, Seb is close but not quite there. That said if he wins the WDC this year he'll have 5 ... that's not to be sniffed at under any circumstances!
tankplanker said:
Seb needs to beat a top class team mate before I'd consider him at the same level as Alonso or Lewis.
Where does that leave Schumacher then? During the years he was winning his titles his team mates were never really allowed to race him and the first time he looked like he might have someone competitive in the other car - when a still hungry Raikonnen joined Ferrari for 2007 - he retired!I think in the right car, Vettel is as fast as anyone. His weaknesses seem to be two-fold - he's not very flexible when it comes to car setup so in a car which doesn't suit his driving style he's just not that quick; and he has a tendency to get into trouble either because the red mist decends or just because he makes silly errors of judgement.
I suspect the fact he doesn't appear to be willing to admit his own mistakes, even to himself, doesn't help him because it means he's not able to learn from them. But for one moment of rage (when he banged wheels with Hamilton) and one silly mistake (Squeezing Max into Kimi) he'd almost certainly be leading the championship or at least within a few points of it, rather than more than a win behind.
I suspect the fact he doesn't appear to be willing to admit his own mistakes, even to himself, doesn't help him because it means he's not able to learn from them. But for one moment of rage (when he banged wheels with Hamilton) and one silly mistake (Squeezing Max into Kimi) he'd almost certainly be leading the championship or at least within a few points of it, rather than more than a win behind.
Edited by kambites on Wednesday 4th October 22:03
Schuey had two other advantages in the form of Jean Todt and Ross Brawn being a part of Ferrari at the time. Add in Rubens as a rear-gunner and a competitive car, and it sure makes life easier.
I don't think that Christian Horner is in the same league as the Todt/Brawn combo. Nor is Arrivabene. Toto and Niki are a formidable pairing. I bet Niki went ballistic at Lewis and Nico after Barcelona last year...
I don't think that Christian Horner is in the same league as the Todt/Brawn combo. Nor is Arrivabene. Toto and Niki are a formidable pairing. I bet Niki went ballistic at Lewis and Nico after Barcelona last year...
JNW1 said:
Where does that leave Schumacher then? During the years he was winning his titles his team mates were never really allowed to race him and the first time he looked like he might have someone competitive in the other car - when a still hungry Raikonnen joined Ferrari for 2007 - he retired!
Interesting line of thought. I guess I would say highly talented given some of the impressive driving around issues he had (stuck in 6th and still good lap times etc), but worthy of all his championships? Well I guess he got more points than the others each year, so the statistics say so. But he was given some significant advantage that is known (number 1 status, team built around him etc) and some which are under question (Michael's tyres / fuel, Ferrari International Assistance etc). In my very subjective opinion, I'd say he fits with Vettel, Prost and all those others that demanded advantage rather than taking the approach of "hire who you want as my team mate, just give me equal status". Those champions are more worthy and proven in a different class IMHO, whether winning only one championship or several.
kambites said:
I think in the right car, Vettel is as fast as anyone. His weaknesses seem to be two-fold - he's not very flexible when it comes to car setup so in a car which doesn't suit his driving style he's just not that quick; and he has a tendency to get into trouble either because the red mist decends or just because he makes silly errors of judgement.
I suspect the fact he doesn't appear to be willing to admit his own mistakes, even to himself, doesn't help him because it means he's not able to learn from them. But for one moment of rage (when he banged wheels with Hamilton) and one silly mistake (Squeezing Max into Kimi) he'd almost certainly be leading the championship or at least within a few points of it, rather than more than a win behind.
So in simple terms SV is a bit of a bell-end!I suspect the fact he doesn't appear to be willing to admit his own mistakes, even to himself, doesn't help him because it means he's not able to learn from them. But for one moment of rage (when he banged wheels with Hamilton) and one silly mistake (Squeezing Max into Kimi) he'd almost certainly be leading the championship or at least within a few points of it, rather than more than a win behind.
Edited by kambites on Wednesday 4th October 22:03
SeeFive said:
In my very subjective opinion, I'd say he fits with Vettel, Prost and all those others that demanded advantage rather than taking the approach of "hire who you want as my team mate, just give me equal status". Those champions are more worthy and proven in a different class IMHO, whether winning only one championship or several.
That's one of the reasons I prefer Hamilton over Vettel; as a racer / driver / champion.SeeFive said:
Interesting line of thought. I guess I would say highly talented given some of the impressive driving around issues he had (stuck in 6th and still good lap times etc), but worthy of all his championships? Well I guess he got more points than the others each year, so the statistics say so. But he was given some significant advantage that is known (number 1 status, team built around him etc) and some which are under question (Michael's tyres / fuel, Ferrari International Assistance etc).
In my very subjective opinion, I'd say he fits with Vettel, Prost and all those others that demanded advantage rather than taking the approach of "hire who you want as my team mate, just give me equal status". Those champions are more worthy and proven in a different class IMHO, whether winning only one championship or several.
You do realise that it was Prost who told Ron to hire Senna, instead of Piquet. Prost beat a number of drivers belonging in anyone's best of all time list : Lauda, Senna & he fair whupped Mansell's a$$In my very subjective opinion, I'd say he fits with Vettel, Prost and all those others that demanded advantage rather than taking the approach of "hire who you want as my team mate, just give me equal status". Those champions are more worthy and proven in a different class IMHO, whether winning only one championship or several.
paua said:
SeeFive said:
Interesting line of thought. I guess I would say highly talented given some of the impressive driving around issues he had (stuck in 6th and still good lap times etc), but worthy of all his championships? Well I guess he got more points than the others each year, so the statistics say so. But he was given some significant advantage that is known (number 1 status, team built around him etc) and some which are under question (Michael's tyres / fuel, Ferrari International Assistance etc).
In my very subjective opinion, I'd say he fits with Vettel, Prost and all those others that demanded advantage rather than taking the approach of "hire who you want as my team mate, just give me equal status". Those champions are more worthy and proven in a different class IMHO, whether winning only one championship or several.
You do realise that it was Prost who told Ron to hire Senna, instead of Piquet. Prost beat a number of drivers belonging in anyone's best of all time list : Lauda, Senna & he fair whupped Mansell's a$$In my very subjective opinion, I'd say he fits with Vettel, Prost and all those others that demanded advantage rather than taking the approach of "hire who you want as my team mate, just give me equal status". Those champions are more worthy and proven in a different class IMHO, whether winning only one championship or several.
However, as you say, when he was at McLaren it was Prost who suggested to Ron that he should look to the future and hire Senna; therefore, to say Prost ensured the team was set-up so he had it easy just isn't true IMO.
KevinCamaroSS said:
Vettel is also only blindingly fast in a car that really suits him, he is not as adaptable as some other drivers.
He's not that different to any other driver on that point. Every driver has their own 'operating window' and they are at their best when the car they are driving is slap bang in the middle of it.If we are talking about drivers with a wide operating window, then nobody is coming near Alonso. It's also not just that, how good one's technical ability is, in being able tune and tinker with the car one is given and get it so it is within one's operating window. It's like a continuum.
We are talking about a breed of humans who are within about 0.3% of each other in ultimate performance so it's an incredibly short continuum.
Also, I feel this whole beating a strong team mate is overrated. I just beat cars that were a second a lap quicker than me, driven by top drivers in the field, and you don't rate it because I don't have a 'top' team mate, in your opinion? Pffft!
Dr Z said:
If we are talking about drivers with a wide operating window, then nobody is coming near Alonso.
That's certainly the impression I get. I suppose in a car they like consistent conditions, there's probably not a huge amount between any of the drivers; it's not as if you can get into F1, even as a pay-driver, without a lot of talent. The stand-out drivers tend to be those who can drive even a complete dog of a car quickly, or who can pull out big margins over their competition in awful conditions.
Edited by kambites on Thursday 5th October 08:33
JNW1 said:
Where does that leave Schumacher then? During the years he was winning his titles his team mates were never really allowed to race him and the first time he looked like he might have someone competitive in the other car - when a still hungry Raikonnen joined Ferrari for 2007 - he retired!
Well I'd suggest he was retired by Ferrari that year rather than he chose to retire, that was one of may stupid mistakes at Ferrari at that point so Michael didn't run away from the challenge.I don't doubt that Michael was a very quick driver, that he could help build and motivate the team around him (probably one of the all time best at this), he work rate was equally phenomenal, although unlimited in season testing enabled this but even at the time he was putting in way more hours than anybody else I'm aware of. Micheal also bought a level of professionalism around fitness and mental attitude that was rare at that time, it wasn't that long ago Mansell (another all time great for me) came back too fat to fit in the car FFS.
I don't like Michael's win at all costs approach, the Konami cheat code in the Benetton, stopping on the track at Monaco, bashing Hill off the track, etc. and obviously I don't like that he never had a clear equal in the same car. That taints him to me and prevents us from understanding just how quick he was. Our one reference point is Rosberg, but then Michael had a break from F1, Michael was older, and F1 had changed as well so was it really a fair test?
tankplanker said:
Our one reference point is Rosberg, but then Michael had a break from F1, Michael was older, and F1 had changed as well so was it really a fair test?
To be fair Rosberg kept him honest and kept Lewis honest too. People hate to admit it, but Rosberg was way better than many would like to believe and I don't think Michael's powers had diminished when he returned, just that at last he had a teammate who could keep up with him much of the time.None of that detracts from what he achieved though especially his part in rebuilding Ferrari. Part of being a top driver is making sure you're in the right team to win the WC (Alonso???), but Michael just built the team instead.
cb1965 said:
To be fair Rosberg kept him honest and kept Lewis honest too. People hate to admit it, but Rosberg was way better than many would like to believe and I don't think Michael's powers had diminished when he returned, just that at last he had a teammate who could keep up with him much of the time.
None of that detracts from what he achieved though especially his part in rebuilding Ferrari. Part of being a top driver is making sure you're in the right team to win the WC (Alonso???), but Michael just built the team instead.
Rosberg was certainly underestimated; a very very fast racing driver and F1 is worse without him IMO. None of that detracts from what he achieved though especially his part in rebuilding Ferrari. Part of being a top driver is making sure you're in the right team to win the WC (Alonso???), but Michael just built the team instead.
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